Michael Vick

Originally posted by quackquack
No one said it is good to dog fight, but there is something wrong with this fact: if he just got drunk and killed someone instead he'd be playing football

Indeed! No one approves of dog fighting, but those killing humans seem to get a pass. We have NFL players who have dealt drugs, held up liquor stores, committed domestic violence. No suspensions for that stuff. I guess it's not cruel to beat the crap out of your wife.

Pete Rose was banned from baseball because of tax evasion and gambling.

Vick organized dog fights, and was a tax evader as well.

Now, if Micheal Milken gets out of prison, should he be allowed to be a stock broker again?

How about the Enron execs? Should they be allowed to resume their past occupations?

There are some real double standards for celebrity status, aren't there?

Vick and his little brother were, and still are thugs, just like Mike Tyson, and a plethora of others who are allowed repeated transgressions that the public is not. Screw the guy. He had his chance and he blew it...bigtime!! He hasn't paid a re-paid a debt to soceity. If you want justice, put his naked ass in a pen full of the pit bulls he bred, and allow the victor of the fray redemption.

Out!!!

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Pete Rose was banned from baseball because of tax evasion and gambling.

Vick organized dog fights, and was a tax evader as well.

Now, if Micheal Milken gets out of prison, should he be allowed to be a stock broker again?

How about the Enron execs? Should they be allowed to resume their past occupations?

There are some real double standards ...[text shortened]... n a pen full of the pit bulls he bred, and allow the victor of the fray redemption.

Out!!!

Very aptly put, shortcircuit. I am all for the death penalty in any manner of ways, but the justice system will give you a pass no matter what. Extreme cruelty of many kinds gets glossed over and the media will allow you to slide depending on whether you're more equal than others. After all being of a certain ethnicity, background, gender, sexual orientation imbues you with "specialness" not afforded to everyone. Indeed athletes are placed on undeserved pedestals, but they are not the only ones. Where I disagree is Milken committed his crimes in his given profession. Of course we don't want him trading stocks professionally. Vick's crimes were not committed on the football field. But again, NFL membership should be a privilege, not a right. If the commisioner finally grows some he will ban all these whiney bastards for life. Make character matter for once. Vick is indeed a thug. Virginia Tech or wherever his brother played took a strong stand against thuggish little brother. Hooray for them!

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Pete Rose was banned from baseball because of tax evasion and gambling.

Vick organized dog fights, and was a tax evader as well.

Now, if Micheal Milken gets out of prison, should he be allowed to be a stock broker again?

How about the Enron execs? Should they be allowed to resume their past occupations?

There are some real double standards ...[text shortened]... n a pen full of the pit bulls he bred, and allow the victor of the fray redemption.

Out!!!

All of the people you mention are completely distinguishable from Michael Vick.

(1) Pete Rose was banned for baseball for betting on his own team. I think baseball has a right to prevent people from fixing games. Rose decides which pitchers pitch, which hitters hit when people get a day off and then he bets on the games. There is just no one you can put that kind of guy back on the field as a manager.
(2) Michael Milken will not be allowed to sell financial instruments becuase he took a plea for abusing his position of power.

Michael Vick never fixed a game: a never cheated on the field; he never used performance enhancing drugs which effects the balance of play. If Michael Vick did not scramble more because of a bet (the Rose equivalent) or use his locker room expertese (the Miliken) equivalent to get into dog fighting. He served his time (which is far too long compared to people who kill other people) he should play football.

Originally posted by quackquack
All of the people you mention are completely distinguishable from Michael Vick.

(1) Pete Rose was banned for baseball for betting on his own team. I think baseball has a right to prevent people from fixing games. Rose decides which pitchers pitch, which hitters hit when people get a day off and then he bets on the games. There is just no one you ...[text shortened]... s time (which is far too long compared to people who kill other people) he should play football.

I agree

We have a justice system to deal with criminal behavior. If anyone feels the current laws are too lenient or too harsh, they can take it up with their Congressional representatives. But once a person has done their time, they should get a clean slate.

The NFL should only be concerned with a person's actions on the field of play. If Vick did something that compromised the game itself (like Pete Rose did) or if he recklessly endangered other players or the fans, then the NFL would have good reason to ban him. But sports leagues should not be in the business of judging a person's private actions. That's the business of the court system.

As for individual teams, they are free to sign or not sign whomever they wish. It's very likely that Vick might have to do some major contrition before a team will take him.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
I agree

We have a justice system to deal with criminal behavior. If anyone feels the current laws are too lenient or too harsh, they can take it up with their Congressional representatives. But once a person has done their time, they should get a clean slate.

The NFL should only be concerned with a person's actions on the field of play. If Vick did ...[text shortened]... 's very likely that Vick might have to do some major contrition before a team will take him.

The NFL is a private organization and it can worry about any behavior that tarnishes their image as a league. Admission into this elite club is a privilege gained mostly on athletic skill. In spirit I agree with you, yet I also feel that the supreme headache signing this thug would mean to any team, in addition to the lockeroom cancer angle of his personality would make hiring him every bit the nightmare I predict he will be for anyone who signs him. Why he celebrated his freedom by going to a strip joint. Contrite? I don't believe for a minute he's contrite at all. Paying a debt to society does not reopen doors closed by virtue of one's actions. Whether his actions on the field ever had anything to do with his actions off the field is relevant to the extent that he used the monies earned on the field for nefarious purposes. Access to more funds will simply be a temptation to relapse. If the league suspends him for good no tears wil be shed. I fear, however, that Goodell has no spine.

Originally posted by quackquack
All of the people you mention are completely distinguishable from Michael Vick.

(1) Pete Rose was banned for baseball for betting on his own team. I think baseball has a right to prevent people from fixing games. Rose decides which pitchers pitch, which hitters hit when people get a day off and then he bets on the games. There is just no one you ...[text shortened]... s time (which is far too long compared to people who kill other people) he should play football.

Well, let's look at it this way then. I don't know you or what profession you are in. It doesn't really matter. I will safely assume you are not dealing in child pornography or the selling of babies on the black market.

Let's say you are a lawyer, or a steel worker..whatever.

Now let's say you get a criminal conviction for illegal sex with a minor child on multiple occasions. You do prison time for the crime (You weren't Michael Jackson and you couldn't afford his legal defense).

Now you get out of prison and you are ready to return to your job. Think it will still be there for you? What kind of success do you think you will have finding a decent job? Based on your post above, there should be no bearing of your crimal behavior on your employment, because the action took place outside of your line of work.

You make it armed robbery, murder, manslaughter, perpetual DWI, it really doesn't matter. Your criminal actions are held accountable in your job field in truth, aren't they?

So to say Vick isn't accountable for being a decent human being is borderline ridiculous, don't you think?

Federal tax evasion is what got Rose busted, by the way. He was banned because of it and the investigation into betting information that came out during that investigation. For what it is worth.

Joe Jackson was banned from baseball with out being proven to be guilty of anything. His numbers during the series showed he played at a comparable level to his normal play, yet he was guilty by association.

There are many double standards out there. In this country, you can get as much justice as you can afford. Period. There is a great difference between legal and just. The law and justice are two very different commodities. You can successfully break the law, be guilty as hell, but through gray areas, or technicalities or tampering, you can get away scott free. That is a fact. Ask any defense attorney if he believes every client he ever represented and got off was innocent. If he says yes, then he/she is a liar as well.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Well, let's look at it this way then. I don't know you or what profession you are in. It doesn't really matter. I will safely assume you are not dealing in child pornography or the selling of babies on the black market.

Let's say you are a lawyer, or a steel worker..whatever.

Now let's say you get a criminal conviction for illegal sex with a minor ...[text shortened]... represented and got off was innocent. If he says yes, then he/she is a liar as well.

Very well put again! No argument from me.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Well, let's look at it this way then. I don't know you or what profession you are in. It doesn't really matter. I will safely assume you are not dealing in child pornography or the selling of babies on the black market.

Let's say you are a lawyer, or a steel worker..whatever.

Now let's say you get a criminal conviction for illegal sex with a minor ...[text shortened]... represented and got off was innocent. If he says yes, then he/she is a liar as well.

A well reasoned post, but it overlooks the fact that the job may or may not be there based on the employer's discretion. Employers choose whether or not to hire those with a criminal record once they've served their time. If an NFL team is willing to sign Vick and the baggage that will come with him, there's nothing that should prevent that.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Well, let's look at it this way then. I don't know you or what profession you are in. It doesn't really matter. I will safely assume you are not dealing in child pornography or the selling of babies on the black market.

Let's say you are a lawyer, or a steel worker..whatever.

Now let's say you get a criminal conviction for illegal sex with a minor ...[text shortened]... represented and got off was innocent. If he says yes, then he/she is a liar as well.

I think you miss the issue completely on Vick. The issue is whether the NFL needs to augment the punishment the legal system gives.
I would suggest a sport should start by looking at (1) was the person adequately punished (2) is the crime something that effects the integrity of the sport or is a crime that is unrelated to sport and just merely a crime the individual committed as a citizen.

Pete Rose bet on Reds game. It is a direct "crime" against baseball separate from tax invasion. It goes directly to the integrity of the sport. Rose should not be reinstated in the game because he ruins the credibility of the game. If he merely did not pay capital gains taxes from stock gains, he might have the smae exact criminal case but I would argue that once he satisfied criminal authorities he should play. Joe Jackson's case is similar. If Shoeless Joe was part of throwing the World Series than the sport should punish him for the "crime "against the sport (obviously if he is innocent he should not be punished at all). I would not let the NBA referee Tim Donaghy back in the NBA because betting on basketball games is clearly a conflict of interest at your job.

Vick's crime was crime he committed as a citizen. He spent two years in jail when people who criminally kill people spend less time (Leonard Little, Dante Stalworth) get jokes of criminal sentences. Simply, no one spends the amount of time in jail Michael Vick did for his crimes. He received an extraordinary sentence because of his status as an athlete. He paid his societal debt and when is ready to play again, should receive no additional punishment.

Originally posted by quackquack
I think you miss the issue completely on Vick. The issue is whether the NFL needs to augment the punishment the legal system gives.
I would suggest a sport should start by looking at (1) was the person adequately punished (2) is the crime something that effects the integrity of the sport or is a crime that is unrelated to sport and just merely a crime is societal debt and when is ready to play again, should receive no additional punishment.

All moot now. Vick has been reinstated after an additional four game suspension. That I don't understand. Either reinstate him outright or don't. It will be interesting to see what NFL team takes the plunge with its accompanying PR nightmare. I, for one, would not want him on my team. Jerry Jones likes thugs, however, and Tony Romo is on the way down, so who knows. I think if the Cowboys concentrate on developing their recently drafted QB from A&M the team will be fine. No Vick for the Boys!

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Well, let's look at it this way then. I don't know you or what profession you are in. It doesn't really matter. I will safely assume you are not dealing in child pornography or the selling of babies on the black market.

Let's say you are a lawyer, or a steel worker..whatever.

Now let's say you get a criminal conviction for illegal sex with a minor ...[text shortened]... represented and got off was innocent. If he says yes, then he/she is a liar as well.

What if for some reason, you personally had to spend time in prison, for whatever reason? Assuming that you know what you did was wrong and have no intention of committing any more crimes, how would you want society to treat you after you got out?

If you believe it would be acceptable for all the employers to blacklist you, how would you deal with this if it was happening to you?

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
The killing of humans taking secondary importance to killing of dogs is further evidence of the deterioration of our society as a whole. After all some people seem to be more equal than others in the eyes of the justice system. If you are an athlete and commit murder you get a light sentence or no sentence at all. Mild public oprobrium perhaps like OJ. ...[text shortened]... vior issues should be booted out permanently. This reinstatement nonsense is hurting the league.

There has been and will always be some people that are more equal. This lack of equality has always existed and goes far beyond legal and national bounds.

Originally posted by gambit3
There has been and will always be some people that are more equal. This lack of equality has always existed and goes far beyond legal and national bounds.

C'est la vie! Alls us mere mortals less equal than others is sit and await for the next screw up to come down the pyke for our voyeuristic behaviorally perverse pleasure! If he gets hired by a team perhaps he will prove us all wrong and truly demonstrate redemption is possible. I hold no high hopes at all simply because the behavior, unlike the other NFL players mentioned, is more volitionally premeditated. Hence a lot harder to kick and seemingly famlial in nature. The pressure to relapse will be intense. If not in former behavior in some other objectionable manner.