Pushing the team to its limit...or abuse?

Where's the line between a coach pushing their team to its limit physically and mentally
(specifically during practice) and abuse?

A player is late for practice and as punishment has to "run laps" or do another physically
exhausting drill. 5 laps = okay...but 6 laps = physical abuse? 100 push-ups = okay...but 120
push-ups = physical abuse?

A player makes a mental mistake during practice and as punishment is verbally ridiculed in
front of his/her teammates. 30 seconds of yelling = okay....but 1 minute + foul language =
verbal abuse? Any yelling = verbal abuse?...

Where's the line? Don't we expect our coaches to push the players physically and mentally?

This thread is in response to the recent dismissals of Texas Tech football coach Mike Leach and
Kansas football coach Mark Mangino on player complaints of verbal and non-physical abuse.
These two programs obviously felt their coaches crossed the line.

But where is the line?

Originally posted by Traveling Again
Where's the line between a coach pushing their team to its limit physically and mentally
(specifically during practice) and abuse?

A player is late for practice and as punishment has to "run laps" or do another physically
exhausting drill. 5 laps = okay...but 6 laps = physical abuse? 100 push-ups = okay...but 120
push-ups = physical abuse? ...[text shortened]... ese two programs obviously felt their coaches crossed the line.

But where is the line?

The line moves depending on circumstances. If you spank a child it is ot abuse unless you leave bruises, for example. You can accomplish a lot without punishing a kid for having a concussion. All the other examples you cite are fairly common and no one complains. I think the Mangino incident was far less egregious than Leach's. It is too bad it came to this, but you don't end being called Darth Vader Leach for being MOther Theresa!

http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2009/12/30/leachs-lawyer-takes-camera-inside-the-shed-and-closet/

After watching that video, I think it would difficult to see exactly what Leach did that was wrong. Evidently, the kid's doctor said that putting the kid in a dark room after the concusion was the right thing to do.

Leach won't have a job at TT after this, but TT is going to be paying him a lot of money and will look like fools. ESPN will look like fools too.


The Tech AD has been looking for an excuse to get rid of Leach for better than a year now. It looks like he tried to use this incident to get rid of Leach. I don't think it is going to work out quite as he hoped.

Originally posted by Eladar
http://ncaafootball.fanhouse.com/2009/12/30/leachs-lawyer-takes-camera-inside-the-shed-and-closet/

After watching that video, I think it would difficult to see exactly what Leach did that was wrong. Evidently, the kid's doctor said that putting the kid in a dark room after the concusion was the right thing to do.

Leach won't have a job at TT after this ...[text shortened]... this incident to get rid of Leach. I don't think it is going to work out quite as he hoped.

Your information on Gerald Myers is so wrong. Myers fought light hell to keep Leach last year when he was talking to Washington. Myers was pissed that Leach didn't ask for permission to speak to them, and leach held them over a barrel if they wanted to retain him. Myers knew his butt was in a sling if Leach got away. Then, after the deal, leach had a ton of power, and Myers may not have liked it, but Leach was the meal ticket to getting the renovations to the stadium and ticket sales.

You can rest assured that there is more to this story that what has been "leaked" to the press, but you are nuts if you think Myers has been trying to dump him.
Watch the domino's fall if Urban Meyer does leave and Florida goes after Bob Stoops. That leaves Mike Leach running Sooner nation. Only fitting I suppose.

Why Florida want Stoops? You know he's the coach of the team that can't win BCS games. Do you think that OU suck, but Stoops is great? I'd love to see Leach at OU. He's been right there with second class athletes. If he can get the OU job, he'll be able to do something.

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
The line moves depending on circumstances. If you spank a child it is ot abuse unless you leave bruises, for example. You can accomplish a lot without punishing a kid for having a concussion. All the other examples you cite are fairly common and no one complains. I think the Mangino incident was far less egregious than Leach's. It is too bad it came to this, but you don't end being called Darth Vader Leach for being MOther Theresa!

it is NEVER ok to hit a child.

Originally posted by trev33
it is NEVER ok to hit a child.

I don't condone hitting a child, but it is a parental prerogative to do so as long as no bruises are left on the child! If you bruise the child or hit vital areas it is most definitely worse!

Originally posted by trev33
it is NEVER ok to hit a child.

I STRONGLY disagree. Many of society's problems today are due to passive parenting. The kids run wild and fear nothing. Unfortunately, they don't seem to learn much either which creates a travesty in society.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I STRONGLY disagree. Many of society's problems today are due to passive parenting. The kids run wild and fear nothing. Unfortunately, they don't seem to learn much either which creates a travesty in society.

you can teach or punish a child without hitting them. i'm not saying parents should be passive i'm saying there's many, many other, better ways to enforce discipline and raise kids without resorting to stone-age brutality.

Originally posted by trev33
you can teach or punish a child without hitting them. i'm not saying parents should be passive i'm saying there's many, many other, better ways to enforce discipline and raise kids without resorting to stone-age brutality.

It's a very contentious subject we've stumbled into here isn't it?

As a child I used to get the odd clip off my Mother, but the words 'wait 'til your father gets home' used to intimidate me more than anything else. I'd live in fear for the rest of the day.... fortunately, my father never hit me, but the threat was enough to put me back in line.
As a parent now myself, I've never had to strike my kids, although I've had my 15 year old lad by the scruff of the neck a couple of times - the look on his face deemed that no further action was necessary...
The problems with 'wild child' kids occur (in my opinion) when you try and be diplomatic and reasoning with kids - they're not old enough to understand reasoning in most cases.
There has to be an element of discipline with children, but the threat of it has always worked on me, and for me.

Originally posted by trev33
you can teach or punish a child without hitting them. i'm not saying parents should be passive i'm saying there's many, many other, better ways to enforce discipline and raise kids without resorting to stone-age brutality.

I mild, well placed swat can be quite effective. The research does not bear out your contention of mild physical punishment being "barbaric" or brutal. As long as you ensure that the swat is within the cofines of resilient body parts like the buttocks and it is immediate, is accompanied by a clear explanation it is not hramful. Again, it is a parenal choice. If a parent opts to go the non-physical route that's OK as well as long as it does not lead to a quasi-friend parent, much more harmful than any mild physical punishment.

But back to sports. These young men are athletes, not the children of these coaches. Discipline is necessary in a sport demanding precision moves and ultimate team work. Resorting to time outs in closets for having a concussion is puerile and silly! Leach demands discipline yet evidences very little from himself. To wit: runs up score against vanquished opponents; calls a failed team performance the fault of the fat little girlfriends; made a player do his homwork in the middle of the practice field; got his raise through thuggish means. Clearly you undermine yourself if your own image is that of a childish cur! That's Leach for you!

I don't think there is any way you can punish a kid for having concussion. If they took the furnature out of a room and made him stand for three hours and had a guard make sure that he could not lean that is inappropriate punishment. No one would even argue that this permissible if it was done by a day care center or a teacher or a babysitter. Football coaches and university have responsibilities too.
The Adam Jones case is easy because the coach appears to be way over the line.

I actually think things which are far more routine and less harmful are inappropriate and should not be done. As a math teacher in New York I could be fired if I ridiculed a student for getting a problem wrong or forgetting his homework (it is considered corporal punishment). I certainly would be fired if I told a kid to do laps or made him carry something heavy around the classroom or called him names. I see no reason why football coaches should be given so much more latitude to ridicule someone when everyone else associated with a Univeristy is and should be expected to treat students with respect.

As for raising normal kids (not babies who might not understand verbalization) there are pleanty of ways to enforce rules without hitting. Generally effective parents can establishment limits without hitting. Parents who continually believe they need to hit their child should seriously consider whether their is something from with their parenting ability or their child.

Originally posted by quackquack
I don't think there is any way you can punish a kid for having concussion. If they took the furnature out of a room and made him stand for three hours and had a guard make sure that he could not lean that is inappropriate punishment. No one would even argue that this permissible if it was done by a day care center or a teacher or a babysitter. Footba ...[text shortened]... seriously consider whether their is something from with their parenting ability or their child.

I diagree etirely with your contention about corporal punishment. You have obviously been steeped in the current culture of anything goes as long as it undermines tradition. Redefining everything as corporal punishment is silly. I have no objection to eliiminating ridicule as a form of teaching, just don't call ridiuling someone "corporal" which it is not. Next we'll have laws telling parents everything they cannot do. Again, there is no research proving mild corporal punishment is harmful! Why it is not allowed in schools is because only a parent should be able to administer such punishment.

That said, indeed Leach was way out of line. his behavior may even rise to criminal if it can be proven the James kid was unable to leave the shed he ws confined in. Leach is a horrible example of human being and a blemish on an otherwise fine school! I think it took courage to can him!

Originally posted by scacchipazzo

That said, indeed Leach was way out of line. his behavior may even rise to criminal if it can be proven the James kid was unable to leave the shed he ws confined in. Leach is a horrible example of human being and a blemish on an otherwise fine school! I think it took courage to can him!

I admit, I have trouble seeing your point of view. Criminal? Would it be any different if
the coach "confined" an injured player to the locker room for the rest of practice? That
"shed" is about as big as my studio apartment (yes, I have a small apartment). It's not
a cage that some people are trying to make it sound like. I'm not saying Leach didn't
make a bad judgment here, but criminal?? Seriously? I would argue that this act alone
is not even worthy of being fired.

Some of the player's former teammates and coaches have come forward and talked
about this player's bad work ethic and how he often tried to cut corners and get out of
drills, and a few of them suspected that he faked injuries that were serious enough to
get out of drills but not serious enough to make him miss the game. There was a
history of him being punished for practice "laziness" too.

I'm not saying he faked a concussion, but based on his history, imagine this scenario
(for argument's sake):
Player reports to doctor with concussion symptoms - doctor tells coach the player has
a concussion and should be moved out of the sunlight for the rest of practice - coach
picks the least comfortable place for the player to go for the rest of practice because
he didn't want him to go somewhere to watch TV or play video games or even lay
down (it's important to make sure someone with a concussion doesn't fall asleep
immediately and they need to be monitored at night when they are asleep).

Was this "shed" small and without modern comforts like TV and music and salad bar?
Yes, but c'mon, there was nothing abusive about it. It was a small room that the
player had to sit in for the rest of practice. If I was the player I'd be sitting there the
entire time saying "Man, this sucks! The coach is such a jerk. I hate him." But
criminal? From the details I've read about it so far, at worst this was poor judgment from Leach.

More details have emerged today and it seems that the main reason Leach was fired
was insubordination. Texas Tech officials say he wasn't cooperating with them as
they tried to resolve the "complaint." And it pissed them off when he sued the school
after he was suspended. It seems there are some seriously big egos at play and the
higher ranking egos won. I'm glad they aren't saying he was fired simply because a
player had to sit out practice in less-than-comfortable conditions.

Originally posted by trev33
you can teach or punish a child without hitting them. i'm not saying parents should be passive i'm saying there's many, many other, better ways to enforce discipline and raise kids without resorting to stone-age brutality.

Correction..you can teach SOME kids without having to hit them. Some kids only respond to a smack on the arse. It's time we put away these notions of one size fits all.

Every other animal on this planet uses a bit of violence to bring its kid into line...why are we any different?