Pushing the team to its limit...or abuse?

Originally posted by Palynka
I'm glad the world is a lot less barbaric these days. 😕

Turn the news on..seems we're getting back into barbarism

Originally posted by Traveling Again
But where do we draw the line? Can't someone argue that expelling a student or failing a
student is psychological assault. Can't it be more harmful to certain students to be expelled
then it would be to swat them with a ruler or paddle?

When I was a grade-school student around 13 or 14 yrs old I had the option of choosing to get
5-10 swa ...[text shortened]... at individuals react
differently (for better or worse) to different forms of punishment?

Sure people react differently to different things and yes expulsion us psychologically damaging and should only be used as a last resort. However, I just don't see why a teacher has a right to hit a student unless it is self defense. You wouldn't let a boss hit a worker, would you? You wouldn't let a spouse hit someone to discipline them. You wouldn't a nehgbor hit some one to teach him a lesson. We don't even let cops hit criminals. We actually give people a trial. Students have the same rights to not be hit by othesr. Schools should model non-violent conflict resolution and those who resort to assault should be arrested. The line is simple. If you use physical contact you should be arrested.

Originally posted by quackquack
You might believe that it is ok for teachers to hit kids to discipline. I don't. Schools have enough violence without teacher on student violence and teachers have enough to do without asking them to smack around kids. If students are really disobedient: fail them, arrest them, expel them, suspend them but no one has a right to assault another human be ...[text shortened]... e profanity based tirades directed at a player or forcing a player to do punishment activities.

I said it is a parental prerogative, not a teachers. Teachers have no business hitting kids nor should schools condone such behavior. However, I frimly believe a parent has the right, short of abuse, to impose the discipline style they see fit to administer. If you disagree with spanking that's OK as well. I simply do not want the state making that call for people, exceptin outright abuse cases. I happen to think most teachers are great, but there are nut cases out there. You seldom hear of a parent dict taping a kid to the wall or making them sit in trash cans for hours. I'm not sayinh parents do no abuse, but generally they have an inborn incentive to treat their children well! Teachers don't!

Originally posted by quackquack
Sure people react differently to different things and yes expulsion us psychologically damaging and should only be used as a last resort. However, I just don't see why a teacher has a right to hit a student unless it is self defense. You wouldn't let a boss hit a worker, would you? You wouldn't let a spouse hit someone to discipline them. You wouldn ...[text shortened]... uld be arrested. The line is simple. If you use physical contact you should be arrested.

I'm not talking about random or spontaneous in-the-moment hitting. More like part of the rules.
If you break rule #3 you will get a swat on the ass. If you break rule #5 you'll get 2 swats, etc.

And especially tie that into athletics. Break rule #8, run laps or do push-ups or something
else that is physically painful. Is there a difference between a player doing push-ups to
exhaustion and a swat on the ass with a paddle? Both are a physical pain as punishment. So, is
any physical punishment to be considered "abuse"?

Originally posted by uzless
we're all animals...species are irrelevant.

You name me some higher order animals that don't use violence and i'll give you 10 for everyone you can name.

How many of those eat their own faeces?

Originally posted by uzless
Turn the news on..seems we're getting back into barbarism

More foolish revisionism. You're a slave of fashion, uzless. And the fun part is that you think you're not.

Originally posted by Traveling Again
I'm not talking about random or spontaneous in-the-moment hitting. More like part of the rules.
If you break rule #3 you will get a swat on the ass. If you break rule #5 you'll get 2 swats, etc.

And especially tie that into athletics. Break rule #8, run laps or do push-ups or something
else that is physically painful. Is there a difference b ...[text shortened]... e a physical pain as punishment. So, is
any physical punishment to be considered "abuse"?

I actually think the difference in purpose is significant. Doing pushups to get into maximum game condition is ok. Doing pushups because you bobbled the snap is different. We do not allow cops to smack someone for jay walking or double parking and we should not allow teachers to structure their rules that way either.

Originally posted by quackquack
I actually think the difference in purpose is significant. Doing pushups to get into maximum game condition is ok. Doing pushups because you bobbled the snap is different. We do not allow cops to smack someone for jay walking or double parking and we should not allow teachers to structure their rules that way either.

Teachers should be allowed to write tickets and force the kid's parents to cough up $100 for each offense of bad behavior, just like cops. I think that would be great!

Originally posted by Eladar
Teachers should be allowed to write tickets and force the kid's parents to cough up $100 for each offense of bad behavior, just like cops. I think that would be great!

How do you teach responsibility by punishing the parents? This has been tried with truancy and has had little if any impact on reducing truancy! What teachers need is greater authority to get rid of problem students. When my little boy was in first grade a student, mainstreamed against the better judgment of staff but forced by obscure rules to do so, almost gouged out the eye of his teacher with a pencil. The principal knew this kid was a problem and had issues of violence. First grade no less. Only because several of us parents demanded action did this little monster get placed back in special ed at a different school where he ended up doing very well. His needs were not being met in a mainstream class!

Originally posted by scacchipazzo
How do you teach responsibility by punishing the parents? This has been tried with truancy and has had little if any impact on reducing truancy! What teachers need is greater authority to get rid of problem students. When my little boy was in first grade a student, mainstreamed against the better judgment of staff but forced by obscure rules to do so, a ...[text shortened]... nt school where he ended up doing very well. His needs were not being met in a mainstream class!

I agree - students that pose a clear and present danger to others in the class need to be removed.

But in the great majority of cases, you're dealing with general disruptiveness, disrespect, or irresponsibility. Corporal punishment is definitely not the answer, but how does a teacher effectively discipline their class? If it's a sports team or some other voluntary activity, you can threaten to take them out of the starting lineup and ultimately kick them off the team - and that's probably more than sufficient to get their attention.

But in a regular classroom, you're dealing with kids that would rather be anywhere else BUT in class. So punishments like suspending them from school are actually rewards. You misbehaved in class? Well guess what, you get to stay HOME for a week!! You might as well give them a plate of cookies.

I think for most kids, they know their parents will go ballistic if the teacher tells them junior has been behaving badly. So the threat of an unpleasant letter or phone call is likely to be sufficient keep them in line. But there are some kids whose parents won't do anything, or they'll put all the blame on the school (after all, my little darling is an absolute angel).

Originally posted by shortcircuit
I have raised 4 so far. When you have raised one come back and talk to me.
I am not saying it is the only way to discipline either, but if corporal punishment is required to get the attention, then I am for it.

I went to a private high school where the teachers hit us with bare fists, wooden paddles, split baseball bats, pool cues, metal rulers, ru ...[text shortened]... took longer on some than others, they were able to get their point across about proper behavior.

and because you were beaten as a child you thought it was acceptable to do the same to your children? that's not unusual i'm sure... it takes a certain type of person to radically change the way they bring up their own kids. i'd be interested if your children carry on the tradition when/if they have kids.

at the time how did you feel towards the people at school who beat you? personally i was hit as a child, never by my mum and my relationship with her is and always has been excellent. that's not what i can say about the other guy.

the excuse of 'that's how i was brought up' just doesn't cut it. would you hit someone else's child who was misbehaving? of course not, why hit your own? there's an endless amount of ways to deal with a child without resorting to hitting them. in my experience that just leads to resentment.

I have raised 4 so far. When you have raised one come back and talk to me.

that's not going to fly here... sure i don't have any kids but i remember being one and i have confidence in my ability to learn from precious experience which includes using my brain to install a sense of discipline in my children or to each them how to respect others. if you're not able to out smart a child to the point were you have to hit them to get them to behave in a certain way then maybe you shouldn't be having kids. and that's not a direct comment at you, i'm sure if you tried you would've thought of better ways to deal with the situations that led to hitting your kids.

Originally posted by uzless
Correction..you can teach SOME kids without having to hit them. Some kids only respond to a smack on the arse. It's time we put away these notions of one size fits all.

Every other animal on this planet uses a bit of violence to bring its kid into line...why are we any different?

Here, here! You hit it on the head, knocked it out of the park and with the bases loaded!

Originally posted by trev33
and because you were beaten as a child you thought it was acceptable to do the same to your children? that's not unusual i'm sure... it takes a certain type of person to radically change the way they bring up their own kids. i'd be interested if your children carry on the tradition when/if they have kids.

at the time how did you feel towards the people at ...[text shortened]... ought of better ways to deal with the situations that led to hitting your kids.

I got hit by my Father ONCE!!!! I wasn't going to ever have that happen again. The fear of it happening again was a deterrent. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

In High School, I knew the rules, and I elected to break them. I knew what the punishment was going to be if I got caught. That is risk vs reward/punishment. I only got busted one time when I wasn't guilty. Did I enjoy getting busted? No. Did I resent it? Hell no!! It is called learning to make proper choices.

Trevor, did you ever get the hell beat out of you in a fight by someone? I suspect that it happened at least once in your life. When it happened, did you learn how to fight so you could prevent it the next time? If not, did you learn how to keep your mouth shut so you wouldn't get into another fight? This is meant to show choices you have and how you get educated about them.

For some reason, you equate physical hitting of a child as abusive or as "beating". When I think of "beating" someone looks like a bloody mess when it is done. Spankings, are not beatings. They are also, quite often, effective in molding discipline and educating the child as to the risk/reward/punishment for certain behavior. I believe it is very effective, but not always.

I also never made an excuse of "that was how I was brought up". The fact of the matter is that we have witnessed a society that has gone downhill because "my generation" allowed the kids "to be themselves and not be strict disciplinarians. Part of this is attributable to both parents working and kids being latch key children, but that is the fault of the parents for allowing their kids to grow up wild. Not all kids turned out that way. But, there are a great many who do not show respect for their elders. They are smart mouth, lazy, with chips on their shoulders. By the time they have evolved into this, it is very difficult to break them of it in the teens or young adulthood. I was raised to respect my elders. I was raised to be polite. To address them with yes sir or no ma'am. This was common courtesy that is so lacking in many youth today. They also think they have all of the answers, which of course, they don't. They think they can tell you about life experiences that they have never experienced themselves, based on how how they feel, which is a crock.

We are obviously not going to agree on this topic. I know that my way does work. I have proof of it. All four of my children understand what is expected of them and what the rules are. If you asked each of them if they feel loved by their family, I am sure they will answer in the affirmative. If you ask them if they got into trouble, they will all answer in the affirmative. If you ask them if they were unjustly treated due to their transgressions they will probably amaze you with their response. The two that are older than you are in the working world living on their own and doing well. The one who is your age is about to graduate from college and is going to go to graduate school. The one who is slightly younger than you is in her third year at college. They will all graduate with High Honors or better.

So, you tell me, do you think how my children were raised was effective? Parents who don't do a good job of parenting, instilling a value system, providing a system of discipline and regimen, do a great disservice to their children and to society. That is why we are in the shape we are in. We as a society are too lenient on bad behavior. If you make the punishment for the crime harsh, the crime will dwindle. Too many bleeding hearts preach compassion and reformation, which, as a rule, has shown to be ineffective. The good thing is, this society won't be my problem to deal with for many more years. It will be your generations problem. It will be interesting to see how you will have to deal with it, and if the world will survive.

How do you teach responsibility by punishing the parents?

The parents are the ones with the responsiblity to correct the behavior. The child is their's, not the teacher's.

If a child gets a ticket for jay walking, who gets to pay it?

If a child gets a ticket for drunk driving, who gets to pay for it?

If a child gets arrested for breaking and entering, who gets to pay for the lawyers?

When parents have a reason to make sure their kids behave, then there will be real results. Until then, some parents will just say "that's the way he/she is" and won't take steps to change behavior. When they get stuck with having to pay rather large chunks of money as they do in the real world, perhaps the importance of having well behaved children will hit home.

I second every bit of shortcircuit's post. Indeed society has become to lenient, too uncriitical of every bad behvior and has laid aside the usefulness of guilt in getting people to become better. No one supports or condones wanton violence with no purpose other than to strike fear in a child, but letting things go is far more harmful than a mild spanking. Parents now feel they have to be their children's friends. I will give you an example. One of my older daughter's best friends always received leneient parenting, her mother would do her science projects for her, let everything slide. This girl is supremely intelligent yet has not accomplished as much as my daughter with whom we have always been very strict and unbending. I have spanked my children sparingly because it was rarely needed, but I was never averse to the occasional swat. My expectations of my children are clear and unambiguous. I am quite proud of both my kids. My daughter has been accepted at two major colleges thus far and I predict she will be accpeted everywhere else she has applied. The trick is structure, concise rules, clear and high expectations and abundant nurturance coupled with a clear understanding of boundaries. In other words, kids and I are firendly, but not firends!