Retired, but Deserving Hall of Famers

Once again:

Free Pete Rose!

Originally posted by badmoon
Would you start Ripkin over Ozzie for one big game?

I sure as hell would. The offensive output is much greater with Ripken, while the defense is only slightly diminished. No question. I would also start Ernie Banks before Ozzie as well as A-Rod over Ozzie. The best question is who would I pick between Ripken and A-Rod.

The best question is who would I pick between Ripken and A-Rod.[/b]

You should not even have to think; A-rod is much better.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
You should not even have to think; A-rod is much better.

Actually, I will stand by my statement. If you look at clutch hitting in big time games, Ripken's output surpasses A-Rod's. That has been one of the biggest knocks on A-Rod that he inflicts most of his damage when it isn't really needed and he folds up shop in the big games and the post season.

A-rod may not always be great in the clutch (but I think that is way overblown) but his numbers are staggering. He is 32 years old and already has 539 homeruns. He has a great chance to retire as the all time homerun champion. A-rod won two gold gloves; has 28- career stloen bases and has been in the top 15 in MVP voting 10 consecutive years (including winning 3).
A-rod's post-season numbers don't match his regular season numbers but a .279 career batting average and .361 post season on-base percentage are far from the worst ever. Although it was a while ago he did bat .313, .308, .409 and .421 in consecutive post season series.
A-rod simply is an alltime great.

Ripkin played every day for 21 years (which is a great accomplishment but augments the totals). To me Ripkin's 162 games average of 23 hrs, 91 RBIs, 2 SB, .276 BA just does not come close.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
A-rod may not always be great in the clutch (but I think that is way overblown) but his numbers are staggering. He is 32 years old and already has 539 homeruns. He has a great chance to retire as the all time homerun champion. A-rod won two gold gloves; has 28- career stloen bases and has been in the top 15 in MVP voting 10 consecutive years (in ...[text shortened]... To me Ripkin's 162 games average of 23 hrs, 91 RBIs, 2 SB, .276 BA just does not come close.

You can't even spell his name.

I was hoping for content related comments rather than coments on spelling, but it is nice to know that someone read my post and took the time respond.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
I was hoping for content related comments rather than coments on spelling, but it is nice to know that someone read my post and took the time respond.

19x All-Star selection (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001)
World Series champion (1983)
2x Gold Glove Award winner (1991, 1992)
8x Silver Slugger Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994)
2x AL MVP (1983, 1991)

Your obsession with statistics is funny to me.

I'm not saying Cal is the better player than A-Rod - I just think there's more to measure a player than just those boring statistics and fantasy baseball rankings. A-Rod would be my first choice as well.

Originally posted by darvlay
19x All-Star selection (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001)
World Series champion (1983)
2x Gold Glove Award winner (1991, 1992)
8x Silver Slugger Award winner (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994)
2x AL MVP (1983, 1991)

Your obsession with statistics is funny to ...[text shortened]... re's more to measure a player than just those boring statistics and fantasy baseball rankings.

I never said Ripken is worthless. I just think A-Rod has a great chance of being a top-5 ever player. It is not an obsession with numbers, statistics show that few players have done what he has done and he is still going strong.
A-rod gets a tremndous amount of publicity for his chance to retire as the all time homerun leader but he is far from one dimensional. He is already in the top 40 in career RBIs; he could get less than 450 more in his career and he'd finish 4th all time. He easily could pass Aaron for number 1. Similarly he is is the top 50 in runs and will finish way up on that list.
Ripken for all his greatness simply never has those accomplishments.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
I never said Ripken is worthless. I just think A-Rod has a great chance of being a top-5 ever player. It is not an obsession with numbers, statistics show that few players have done what he has done and he is still going strong.
A-rod gets a tremndous amount of publicity for his chance to retire as the all time homerun leader but he is far fro ...[text shortened]... nish way up on that list.
Ripken for all his greatness simply never has those accomplishments.

I will take exception to the Hank Aaron comparison. First of all, they played in two very different eras. The ball has been juiced during most of A-Rod's career. The quality of pitching is inferior today to the time of Aaron due to several factors. The first being expansion which has allowed many more pitchers into the game that would not have been there otherwise, lowering the overall caliber. The second being multi-year contracts which have turn players into whiners. Many, though not all, don't play if they have a hangnail or partied a little too much the night before. Pitchers, as a rule are expected to go only 5 or 6 innings now, whichyou would think would improve the quality, but not so. In fact, the stamina and durability of players sucks in comparison to Aaron's era. The quality of the equipment is much better. The balls are tighter, the bats are harder, the stadiums are more conducive to the longball than ever before. The travel conditions for the players is much better. They pretty much fly everywhere. No bus trips at all. That produces less wear and tear on the body. The quality of medical treatments has allowed players to recover from injuries much sooner than in Aaron's era. Racial tensions have changed drastically. Aaron was hounded by the white people because he chased Babe Ruth's record. Death threats followed him around. Try to perform under those conditions. Let's not even mention the words (performance enhancing drugs). McGwire, Palmiero & Bonds have been linked. Manny, A-Rod and others are scrutinized and while not proven, certainly suspicions are reasonable. I know A-Rod is a gym rat, and I do not have proof that he used PHD's, nor am I accusing him, but the doubt is still there.

When you weigh the evidence, Aaron's numbers are still better than Bond's and they will still be better than A-Rod's IMO.

I agree that different eras are different but it cuts both ways.
Hank Aaron got to beat up in the 9th inning on guys who threw 160 pitches and not have to face Mariano Riveras. There were only 100 million people in the US and no great influx of foreign players. There are more teams but there is an even larger talent pool. A-rod is 32 and has 539 homeruns. He's the best of his era.
For all guys who use steriods, I would completely void their numbers. I think after looking at Bonds, McGuire and Sosa, it seems pretty clear that when you have a suspision (even without any definitive proof) you could very well be right. So if you feel A-Rod cheated you can ignore his accomplishments.
But performancing enhancing drugs are not a 90s phenenomenia. In agriculture they have been used for at least half a century. The Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70s used them. There is no way of knowing which guys of the baseball generation before used them also. (For example, Nolan Ryan and 5714 strike outs. Maybe even Hammerin' Hank who never seemed to age and kept hitting around 40 per year)

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
I agree that different eras are different but it cuts both ways.
Hank Aaron got to beat up in the 9th inning on guys who threw 160 pitches and not have to face Mariano Riveras. There were only 100 million people in the US and no great influx of foreign players. There are more teams but there is an even larger talent pool. A-rod is 32 and has 53 outs. Maybe even Hammerin' Hank who never seemed to age and kept hitting around 40 per year)

LOL Foreign player influx??? Latinos have been here since the 50's so I assume you are refrring to the plethora of Japanese talent that has dominated baseball since Aaron's days. Please, name me more than a dozen or so foreign players who were superstars with any length of career?

Ok, let's examine those old broken down pitchers like Ryan, Koufax, Gibson, Seaver, Marichal, Jenkins, Perry, Carlton, Drysdale, Roberts,
Wilhelm, Bunning, Niekro & Sutton. These are just the Hall of Famers he faced regularly. There are others from the era he didn't face much, or at all like Spahn, Palmer, Hunter, Gossage, Ford, Lemon & Fingers. I would day they compare quite favorably to what A-Rod faces, wouldn't you? The fact that the guys still got people out in the 9th inning says more to me about their ability than guys who go 6 innings and make way for the specialists. Face it, whether you want to admit it or not, the quality of pitching has been diminished.

Regarding the drugs, you think Hank was juicing it? LOL Please. If you had ever met the man you would know why he has the numbers he did. I have met him many times and I am telling you his wrists are thicker and stronger that most people I have ever seen. Watch video footage of his swing. It is far, far more likely that A-Rod has juiced it than Aaron. You are probably not aware of the technoliogical advancements that have been made in the swings of hitters in the last 25 years. During Aaron's era, the power was generated through hip rotation and wrist whip. Through technology, they figured how to generate more power with a compact swing against a stiff front leg. They use lighter bats as well. This is where technology has aided in beefing up the home run. MLB condoned this because the "true fans" of the game did not provide enough of a fan base to grow the game. "Fair weather fans" were bored watching 1-0. 2-0 . 2-1 games. The classic pitchers duels were not exciting enough. They wanted home runs, lots of home runs. So they got it in all of the ways I have described to you. Now you see football scores reguarly and only rarely do you see pitching gems. Look at how infrequent no-hitters are now, let alone perfect games.

Originally posted by myteamtrulystinks
(For example, Nolan Ryan and 5714 strike outs. Maybe even Hammerin' Hank who never seemed to age and kept hitting around 40 per year)

I think that when one looks at Ryan and Aaron's careers one can safely say they were not on steroids. For one, they were consistent. They didn't all of a sudden become great in their old age. They were great in their old age because they were great in their youth. Steroids make players prone to injury, and these two hardly spent any time on the DL. Their physical appearance did not change all of a sudden, unlike Bonds, McGwire, or Sosa. Plus, steroids can make people look awful in their old age. Ryan and Aaron have both aged gracefully.

I do not think it's a good idea to throw suspicion on a player merely because of good numbers. An abnormal jump can raise an eye with the other signs thrown in. I think it entirely possible A-Rod is not on steroids for the reasons posted above.

np

A-rod was always great the way Aaron and Ryan were great. I just think if you are going to accuse A-rod with no evidence other than the fact that his stats are mind boggling than should consider people like Nolan Ryan and Hank Aaron who seemed to continue to perform at levels no one else could as they aged.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
LOL Foreign player influx??? Latinos have been here since the 50's so I assume you are refrring to the plethora of Japanese talent that has dominated baseball since Aaron's days. Please, name me more than a dozen or so foreign players who were superstars with any length of career?

Ok, let's examine those old broken down pitchers like Ryan, Koufax, G ...[text shortened]... see pitching gems. Look at how infrequent no-hitters are now, let alone perfect games.

Aaron played for 23 years there are great pitchers in every era. You think they were just in the 50s and 60s? It is silly to think there were great pitchers then but now there are only great hitters but no great pitchers. There are great pitchers today.
Finally, it is not just the hitters who train more. Pitchers are far better athletes than they were then. One reason guys don't last as long is they throw more pitches like split finger fast balls which are tough to hit but also tough on the arm. They have left specialists for big hitters; instead of getting to bat a fourth time against a tired pitcher. There are pleanty on changes in the game not all to benefit hitters.

The number and percent of Lations has increased dramtically. It is a more inclusive sports world and that more than makes up for the increase in teams.

Your argument is that Hank Aaron did not use performance enhancing drugs because certain parts of his body (his wrists) are unusually big? Usually people look at body changes and say that is evidence of performance enhancing drugs. But I guess you met the guy many times so you know.

The perfect game arguement is both irrelevant and untrue. There have been 17 perfect games since 1880. 8 of them since 1981.