Soccer 'flopping'

Originally posted by sh76
Hockey has a similar issue to soccer, yes. But at least there's somewhat more scoring and there's much more action around the net. Action around the net is inherently more interesting than action in the middle of the pitch because the point of the game is to put the ball in the net.

Regarding the NFL, yes, there are not that many scores (though more than 5 p ...[text shortened]... , there's no way the last 2 minutes of an NHL game can be compared to the last 2 of an NFL game.

. I know this is a subtle difference and maybe I'm not explaining it well

i get what you are saying and its a good point. i guess you could argue in a.football a decent throw are run and yard gain or 1st down is celebrated like goal in soccer.

i think a problem soccer has in winning over americans is international football, which is nothing like club football. international is very slow, usually very cautious, less goals and less drama. these games will see a lot of action in the middle. however the average premier league game is what we call 'direct' the idea is to get the ball on end to the other quickly with lots of forward passes, these games end up being 'end to end' which results in hardly any play in the middle of the park. even more so if you watch the english lower leagues.

Originally posted by sh76
By playoffs, I mean a post season tournament to determine a champion. Maybe you have a different name for it. In the US, every major sport has one.

i know im biased but i prefer the soccer method of having league and cup competitions. we have the fa cup and league cup which offer knock out competitions and the league which gives us the outright best team. then we have the champions league to round it all of and decide the best team in europe (and the world). we also have all the lower leagues and their play-offs. then every other year a major international tournament. so each season is crammed with big games, many of which offer one off games to decide the winner.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i know im biased but i prefer the soccer method of having league and cup competitions. we have the fa cup and league cup which offer knock out competitions and the league which gives us the outright best team. then we have the champions league to round it all of and decide the best team in europe (and the world). we also have all the lower leagues and t ...[text shortened]... o each season is crammed with big games, many of which offer one off games to decide the winner.

I'm not claiming to understand the whole system but the problem that I see is that you eliminate most teams from a chance at the league title fairly early in the season. By the halfway point, I'll bet you can knock out 75% of the league from a real chance at the title. In the big 4 American sports, 3/4 of the teams still have a chance to win a title at the midway point and at least half the league still has a chance until the very end of the regular season.

The Stanley Cup playoffs, for example, really make that sport and are incredibly fun to watch and follow because almost anybody can win in a given year. I can't even imagine hockey without the Stanley Cup playoffs. In NCAA football, they used to not have a playoff, but they're coming around as this year they had a 4 team playoffs for the first time. My understanding is that in the Premier league, you can lose a few games early in the season and you're title hopes are pretty much done for.

I'm sure the Champions League is great, but does that appeal as much to Premier League fans as does Premier league action? I don't know, of course. But in the US, that sort of post season tournament with teams from other countries would be looked at as an exhibition in all likelihood.

One serious question: Does the Premier League have no post season tournament due to lack of time or due to traditionalism?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
.i think a problem soccer has in winning over americans is international football, which is nothing like club football. international is very slow, usually very cautious, less goals and less drama. these games will see a lot of action in the middle. however the average premier league game is what we call 'direct' the idea is to get the ball on end to th ...[text shortened]... hardly any play in the middle of the park. even more so if you watch the english lower leagues.

That could very well be it.

Americans follow soccer pretty closely in the World cup, especially when the US is still alive. With more scoring and more end to end action, soccer might eclipse hockey in popularity.

Originally posted by sh76
I'm not claiming to understand the whole system but the problem that I see is that you eliminate most teams from a chance at the league title fairly early in the season. By the halfway point, I'll bet you can knock out 75% of the league from a real chance at the title. In the big 4 American sports, 3/4 of the teams still have a chance to win a title at the midw ...[text shortened]... the Premier League have no post season tournament due to lack of time or due to traditionalism?

the idea with league football is that the best team wins. the smaller teams have a chance of winning in one off games, so the fa cup and league cup often give these teams a chance of glory, however the leagues are to determine who is the best, which cannot be decided in a play off situation.
fans of teams not challenging for the title will be battling to finish high up and land a euro or champions league spot or will be battling to avoid relegation, which is usually more gripping and emotional than whats going on at the top of the table.

the champions league is played all season and is huge, most fans and teams would rather win this than the premiership. the final is the very last game of the season. to a lot of fans its the biggest game in football, bigger than the world cup as the teams in the champions league are better than international teams.

the season contains several competitions, usually all running at the same time. we normally end the season with cup finals, such as the fa.cup and champions league. the lower leagues have play offs to decide promotion into the league above. post season is reserved for international football, so we hold the euro's and the world cup in this time.

one of the cool things about the fa cup is that amateur teams can enter. if they make it to the 3rd round they could be drawn against the likes of man untied. the fa cup has a long history of small teams giant killing and doing well in the tournament. my team miiddlesbrough are typically in the league below the premier league, last season we beat man city in the cup and ran liverpool close, weve been to two fa cup finals and several semi finals. so there is plenty of opportunity for the smaller teams to do well.

Originally posted by sh76
That could very well be it.

Americans follow soccer pretty closely in the World cup, especially when the US is still alive. With more scoring and more end to end action, soccer might eclipse hockey in popularity.

maybe they should watch sunday league football, this is what your average guy in the street plays, little skill, lots of fighting, lots of goals, followed by lots of beer.

Since the OP was about 'flopping/diving', I would like to hear some opinions about how this will be stopped. A poster here claimed that the ref has the power to issue a yellow card to the 'diver'. I was not aware of this, and am curious if the penalties will solve the issue.

As I have stated earlier, in our NBA basketball, players have received fines of 5,000 dollars for flopping, and this problem has all but disappeared. Will soccer/football join ranks and do something to eliminate the problem?

Originally posted by chaney3
Since the OP was about 'flopping/diving', I would like to hear some opinions about how this will be stopped. A poster here claimed that the ref has the power to issue a yellow card to the 'diver'. I was not aware of this, and am curious if the penalties will solve the issue.

As I have stated earlier, in our NBA basketball, players have received fines of ...[text shortened]... all but disappeared. Will soccer/football join ranks and do something to eliminate the problem?

it is true that yellow cards can be issued to divers (or 'floppers'😉

It is v difficult for the referee to do this...the endless replays at half time/after the game can make them look very foolish if there has been any sort of contact which would explain the player 'going down'

Thus, 'in game' punishment is rare. After the match analysis of recorder footage, with retrospective fines and/or bans may be the only way forward

Originally posted by st dominics preview
it is true that yellow cards can be issued to divers (or 'floppers'😉

It is v difficult for the referee to do this...the endless replays at half time/after the game can make them look very foolish if there has been any sort of contact which would explain the player 'going down'

Thus, 'in game' punishment is rare. After the match analysis of recorder footage, with retrospective fines and/or bans may be the only way forward

It's also difficult because a yellow card is too harsh a penalty with a second yellow being DQ and who knows what other consequences. In general, it seems to me that penalties in soccer are either virtually meaningless (free kick in the middle of the pitch) or incredible harsh (Red card or penalty shot). Maybe the sport could use some intermediate penalties such as losing a player for a few minutes (like hockey).

Originally posted by sh76
It's also difficult because a yellow card is too harsh a penalty with a second yellow being DQ and who knows what other consequences. In general, it seems to me that penalties in soccer are either virtually meaningless (free kick in the middle of the pitch) or incredible harsh (Red card or penalty shot). Maybe the sport could use some intermediate penalties such as losing a player for a few minutes (like hockey).

my friend, you have summed up perfectly what the problem is with Soccer.

The 2 'penalties' that you have highlighted (the penalty shot ~ free shot from 12 yds out) and 'sending off', which bans the player from the rest of the game (also 'obtained' by 2 x yellow cards for 'lesser' offences) are way too harsh.

Both can be 'obtained' by this diving or flopping

As you say, a lesser penalty such as 10 mins 'out' would be better. It is used in Rugby Union , with which you may be familiar and is also hugely popular over here.

A sending off also 'spoils the game' ~ 2 equally matched, excellent sides, suddenly it becomes extremely unequal, with the side losing a player going very defensive to try to come out at least equal, with ensuing lack of entertainment

Originally posted by st dominics preview
my friend, you have summed up perfectly what the problem is with Soccer.

The 2 'penalties' that you have highlighted (the penalty shot ~ free shot from 12 yds out) and 'sending off', which bans the player from the rest of the game (also 'obtained' by 2 x yellow cards for 'lesser' offences) are way too harsh.

Both can be 'obtained' by this d ...[text shortened]... layer going very defensive to try to come out at least equal, with ensuing lack of entertainment

Maybe soccer/football would be wise to have instant replay. And to the point of previous posters, if the replay shows NO contact to a 'diver', then he gets sent to the sidelines/penalty box for 2 minutes.....leaving his team 'shorthanded'....as in ice hockey.

Something needs to be done about this problem of diving/flopping.

In a previous post.....Ghost brought up 'shirt tugging'. I am not familiar with this.

Speaking of which, I'm watching Westhampton - Arsenal right now. This guy Giroud keeps going down in a heap and writing in agony. I keep expecting the stretcher on pitch to carry him off to the emergency room. But he keeps popping up and playing as if nothing happened. I think he's drawn 2 yellows and a bunch more fouls.

Either he has remarkable powers of recuperation or he may be embellishing a bit.

Originally posted by sh76
Speaking of which, I'm watching Westhampton - Arsenal right now. This guy Giroud keeps going down in a heap and writing in agony. I keep expecting the stretcher on pitch to carry him off to the emergency room. But he keeps popping up and playing as if nothing happened. I think he's drawn 2 yellows and a bunch more fouls.

Either he has remarkable powers of recuperation or he may be embellishing a bit.

That behavior is really terrible for the sport. That's why I brought up our NBA. It was getting awful to watch 'athletes' not playing the sport, and merely becoming actors for the ref....just to get a foul? To shoot 2 free throws, and abandon their manhood and athletic capabilities. That's why their is no more flopping in the NBA, severe financial fines has put a stop to it. Besides, we want to see the players actually play real defense, and not be mere actors.

That is what I see in soccer/football. These 'athletes' are giving up their manhood....for what? Do they not realize that they look like babies while they are faking injury and near tears? I created this thread because I tried to watch soccer/football when nothing else was on.....and it was grossly embarrassing to watch. If soccer players are such great athletes.....then here is the point: Quit playing baby actors for the ref....and actually play the game, and utilize your abilities, and give the crowd something honorable to cheer for.

My opinion of soccer/football players right now.....they are just babies, not athletes. When they actually start playing the sport, then my opinion may change.

Edit: This is NOT an attack on English football. In America, we have many different soccer teams....and they do the same thing. My problem is with ALL soccer....not just the English.

hello

Interesting perspective from 'over the pond', and I agree with much of what you say.

To the poster who suggested 'replays' to highlight or check diving, it has been suggested, but the feeling is that it would halt the flow of the game too much (maybe once every 5 mins?) to check on such actions, and would not be popular amongst fans. (one thing about a soccer game, you go to a game that starts at 3pm, and you know it will be finished by 5pm ~ if there is no 'extra time' provision ~ and fans like this)

As for the 'manliness' of the players ~ spot on. I am a rugby fan (it is not dissimilar to your US Football, without padding!), and as you can guess, is played by heavily muscled, 15-20 stone hard men. the contact that THEY take, then just get up, mocks football, indeed, rugby fans call soccer 'wendyball'.

There are many clips of soccer players falling in heaps at the slightest contact, or acting to get other players 'yellow carded'. My view is that these clips should be looked at post-game, and harsher penalties brought down on them.

shirt tugging is a way of cheating ~ especially in 'close contact' areas (say, for a corner where the ball is kicked near to the opponents goal and in theory just one kick or header could score a goal), pulling an opponents shirt stops them from getting into a good position, but is against the laws. it still happens a lot!

ps ~ it was West Ham vs Arsenal!!

Originally posted by st dominics preview
hello

Interesting perspective from 'over the pond', and I agree with much of what you say.

To the poster who suggested 'replays' to highlight or check diving, it has been suggested, but the feeling is that it would halt the flow of the game too much (maybe once every 5 mins?) to check on such actions, and would not be popular amongst fans. ...[text shortened]... position, but is against the laws. it still happens a lot!

ps ~ it was West Ham vs Arsenal!!

I agree that replays reviewing diving would slow the game down too much. Even in the NFL, where there is instant replay, most penalties are not reviewable.

I think most Americans would agree that soccer could be a great game. We just have trouble getting into it because of the lack of scoring and, even more so, the lack of meaningful statistics. The NHL suffers from similar problems, which is the main reason it's behind the NBA, NFL and MLB. Baseball, by contrast, while perhaps boring in the field, is a statistician's dream. http://sabr.org/

It's also possible that Americans have trouble getting into our soccer league because we know it's really minor league level compared to the Premier League. While Americans do like college sports, we don't generally get into minor professional leagues. Sure we could watch the Premier league on NBCSN, but it's at odd times of day (early morning) here and we have enough in the way of North American major sports leagues to need to fill any sports gap.

Not gonna happen, I know, but...

If the Premier league:

1. Established a North American Division with, say 12 teams in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Toronto, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Denver, Boston, Washington, Phoenix and Atlanta and gave those teams access to the same "major league" talent through a draft of some sort as the British teams get;

2. Somehow increased the scoring to an average of 7-10 goals a game (between the 2 sides) (don't ask me how - maybe remove the offsides rule or take players off the pitch or make the net bigger; I don't know).

3. Allowed the American teams to play their home games in good time slots

I think the sport would jump into the upper eschelon of US sports and probably eclipse the NHL.

But since all of that won't happen, we'll settle for the World Cup once every 4 years and catching a few minutes here and there on NBCSN when we're bored on a Sunday morning.