Policing

I appreciate this topic has been done to death, but...
Some time ago I was naive enough to believe that games here are monitored for engine use. This used to be the case, but not now. As a result, the top pages of the leader board are a farce. Probably irrelevant to a mid-table duffer on page 164 such as I, but if my user name were Tebb or Caissad4 or any other honest player in the lofty heights, I would be extremely frustrated by the amount of fast moving geniuses that pop up from nowhere.
The single most significant improvement to an otherwise excellent site, would be to re-introduce policing of games played by, say, the top 100 players - let's face it, this is the area where the most committed engine users sit.
Am I being naive again?

Totally agree I been away for a while and I been looking and its a joke with some players. You can report players.

Got to site faq at the bottom click on that,and then there is a fair play ticket which you can report suspicious players and hopefully that gets noticed. Used to be a lot of 3b on here and used to be lists of bannings but that all seems to have disappeared.

Cheers Smiffy. Yes you can report a player but you need supporting evidence. Most of us here, I'm guessing, don't have either the resources, the conviction or the time to do that.
There are numerous whys and wherefores as to the reasons that cheats are prospering unpunished and I'm sure one or two of the more savvy amongst you will shed some light.
But the bottom line is that many of the 'top' players are having a laugh. And that just isn't right.

Originally posted by Larkie
Cheers Smiffy. Yes you can report a player but you need supporting evidence. Most of us here, I'm guessing, don't have either the resources, the conviction or the time to do that.
There are numerous whys and wherefores as to the reasons that cheats are prospering unpunished and I'm sure one or two of the more savvy amongst you will shed some light.
But the bottom line is that many of the 'top' players are having a laugh. And that just isn't right.

Larkie,

Even with supporting evidence these cheats remain unpunished. A couple months ago, several players petitioned the site to look at TheBigKat. He had monstrously high matchup rates-higher than pre-computer postal chess days and higher than the current world champion. Yet, the site did nothing with it.

My guess is-these cheats are paying subscribers. Russ (I hope I got the name right-drawing a blank right now) has done a favor by creating a really nice CC site. I suspect the many subscriptions are just too good to pass up. In some ways, I can't blame him. Who doesn't want to make money?

It is very frustrating at times negotiating the cheat landscape. The site championship has been all but ruined by cheats, as well as many other tournaments. Clan play can be frustrating too-I just try to alert my clan leader and ask that he not match me against these players. Also, just don't accept challenges from suspicious users. CondePoderoso randomly challenged me a couple weeks ago. He looked suspicious then, and is now (in my mind) guilty. I suspect he is actually playing multiple accounts against each other to boost his rating. That challenge when in the 'deleted box' quickly.

Cheers,

K.T.

I,ve said it before, and I'll say it again. What do the cheats get out of it. They are not winning the game, the engine is. So where is the pleasure in a victory. There can't be any pleasure, because they hav'nt won, the engine has.

I agree think of the amount of subscribers that leave because of this probably lose more money that way than banning a few engines. Rtmiller I remembered from when I was here a few years ago was 1400's now is a 2100+ I thought that was funny. The graphs are evidence aswell use them and when you report a player advise the graph. Unless these players are grandmaster noway should people be unbeatable lol.

Originally posted by Smiffy
I agree think of the amount of subscribers that leave because of this probably lose more money that way than banning a few engines. Rtmiller I remembered from when I was here a few years ago was 1400's now is a 2100+ I thought that was funny. The graphs are evidence aswell use them and when you report a player advise the graph. Unless these players are grandmaster noway should people be unbeatable lol.

The main problem I think, is the amount of time it takes to peg one cheater. If we had computers a thousand times faster or a dedicated core of people, like 40 or 50 people analyzing games, that would be one thing. But when you only have a few people analyzing games, it takes quite a bit of time to peg a single cheater and to me it looks like there are just too many to catch them all or even the majority.

The top ranks are clearly as phony as a 3 dollar bill but there are probably just too many of them to get caught out.

Kind of like looters after a hurricane, you see the reports where these asssholes go in by the hundreds and walk out with huge LED flat screens and such and nobody can stop them, just too many to stop.

Yeah good point Smiffy. Quite a few players have moved away from the site because they are sick to the back teeth of the proliferation of cheats. Lost revenue versus the cost of some random sampling of games played by some of these characters is an equation that should, I think, be explored. It's not as if the biggest offenders, with their zero-to-hero ratings, are difficult to detect, is it?
This is a much-resurrected topic; honest subscribers, like the big majority of us at RHP, are clearly unhappy with the status quo of turning a blind eye to engine use.

Originally posted by Larkie
Yeah good point Smiffy. Quite a few players have moved away from the site because they are sick to the back teeth of the proliferation of cheats. Lost revenue versus the cost of some random sampling of games played by some of these characters is an equation that should, I think, be explored. It's not as if the biggest offenders, with their zero-to-hero rating ...[text shortened]... rity of us at RHP, are clearly unhappy with the status quo of turning a blind eye to engine use.

The cheaters do tend to stand out just by their win/loss record, like the current #2, thousands of games played, a 25 odd percent loss, over a thousand losses and over 600 draws. That sounds like a human effort to me. but you see these other names where they have say 500 games and 3 losses, just a bit more than suspicious. The only way that could happen for real is if most of those top players are actual grandmasters in disguise, and even then, the record would have a lot more losses and draws.

I think Russ just figured out it is just too huge a task to clear out all those cheaters, it seems to me it would take a cadre of people analyzing 8 hours a day to prove them out beyond doubt. You need to go over a lot of their games for each player to make a definite conclusive statement about cheating, you can't just choose a game at random and give a reality check to it, it takes a pattern of games and that means a lot of time and a lot of moderators doing the work.

You are absolutely right sonhouse. The task of eradicating cheats altogether is impossible. But to examine the games of a few of the most brazen (there's already a tide of evidence against TBK) and to kick out just a few from time to time, is not - exactly this used to happen (iron man, Mary Ann spring to mind) and at least sends out a message.
If this turns out costly, I'd be happy to fork out an extra few bucks a year for a cleaner site...

Originally posted by Larkie
You are absolutely right sonhouse. The task of eradicating cheats altogether is impossible. But to examine the games of a few of the most brazen (there's already a tide of evidence against TBK) and to kick out just a few from time to time, is not - exactly this used to happen (iron man, Mary Ann spring to mind) and at least sends out a message.
If this turns out costly, I'd be happy to fork out an extra few bucks a year for a cleaner site...

You get a fair indication of cheaters when you just look at their game profile, you can see the pattern of a flat line up near the top, horizontal line with not much deviation, whereas if you look at a duffer like me, you see the mountains of Colorado🙂 I think that is the first place to examine, just look at the game profile.

In the first round of the Championships I had a player Ulf t in my group. He was around 1600+ then. This was about 4 months ago. Since then, you may wish to note that his rating is currently 2318, a gain of some 700 points. Looking at his history, he was struggling against 1300 players at one time. Then, suddenly, a run of incredible victories and he's on the front page. Suspend your disbelief.

The fact that this kind of thing goes on is detrimental to the site and the honest players here. After 4 years, I am considering packing RHP in, as the administrators are only interested in keeping the subscribers, no matter what.

Originally posted by Tintin1963
In the first round of the Championships I had a player Ulf t in my group. He was around 1600+ then. This was about 4 months ago. Since then, you may wish to note that his rating is currently 2318, a gain of some 700 points. Looking at his history, he was struggling against 1300 players at one time. Then, suddenly, a run of incredible victories and he's on ...[text shortened]... ng RHP in, as the administrators are only interested in keeping the subscribers, no matter what.

I agree, they should act on the more obvious cases like Ulf and TBK.

It wouldn't make me want to leave the site if they don't though,
we've got a good thing going here.

Originally posted by steve45
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What do the cheats get out of it. They are not winning the game, the engine is. So where is the pleasure in a victory. There can't be any pleasure, because they hav'nt won, the engine has.

As someone wrote before on this forum, it might not be the will to win but more often the desire not to lose or at least not to blunder into a loss. This creates a different perspective as then it's not just a matter of letting the engine calculate all the moves, but letting the engine (or any one else!) "assist" in certain situations only, or as coach, or as fall-back. This way the cheater will certainly engage in playing and learning a few things by studying the engine analysis. Such win might not be completely counted as "their own" by themselves but some pay-off might still be present since the overall strategy and most of the moves will be considered to still be their own or at least some sense of progress or learning might still be experienced. Lowlife morality? Yes. But they might not feel able to compete without it. One can only hope those training wheels will be abandoned at some point (or the whole sport) and it will not become a permanent feature.

I think this also explains why the war on cheaters can never be won ultimately, although perhaps the obvious ones can be caught by looking at their history or some time consuming analysis of all their moves in a game. But that's only the tip of the potential iceberg I suspect.

I've recently beaten a 2000 rated player who randomly challenged me! Steve Larrabee(anyone know him?) he has indirectly accused me of cheating!! he played some weak moves imo and I feel insulted to say the least he can't accept defeat!! it's like,''1600+ beats 2000 rated so they must have cheated''! seems like a high ratings club, invincible to lower players who must have cheated!!! strange how a lot of the top rated players are not in any clans or Tournaments either? I don't know how to post the game up but the id is this 10808776
Cheers
C.