Chemistry question

does bleach really act as a sanitiser or not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
does bleach really act as a sanitiser or not?

Well it's toxic/poison to most life forms, so yes, it acts as a sanitiser.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well it's toxic/poison to most life forms, so yes, it acts as a sanitiser.

Hi, googlefudge, I'd wondered where you'd been, I hope you're well.

Yes, bleach is normally hypochlorous acid which will act as a good disinfectant. However I wouldn't recommend it as a sanitizer, certainly not for hands, the requirement is that they both clean and disinfect. So some surfactant would need to be added by the manufacturer and if it's put on metals will eat into the metal and if mixed with the wrong thing will release chlorine. The best advice for Robbie is to read the instructions on the bottle, they should say what it can safely be used on.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Hi, googlefudge, I'd wondered where you'd been, I hope you're well.

Yes, bleach is normally hypochlorous acid which will act as a good disinfectant. However I wouldn't recommend it as a sanitizer, certainly not for hands, the requirement is that they both clean and disinfect. So some surfactant would need to be added by the manufacturer and if it's ...[text shortened]... Robbie is to read the instructions on the bottle, they should say what it can safely be used on.

I am currently well thank you... although that's coming off of 2 weeks off with the worst flu-like
virus I've had in years... I hope you are likewise.

I was thinking more in terms of using it to disinfect contaminated areas/clothing rather than
hands... Where I suspect it would be counter productive in that the damage to our hands
would cause gaps in your barrier defences and allow future pathogens to enter your blood
stream. [excessively hot water will have a similar effect]

Most of the time the best thing for hand washing is simple PH neutral soap and hydraulic
and mechanical action from warm [but not hot] water.

All these anti-bacterial soaps are simply increasing anti-biotic resistance.

And should only be used in situations were there is a genuine need for additional protection.

Also keep in mind that excessive sanitation is bad for humans.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Hi, googlefudge, I'd wondered where you'd been, I hope you're well.

Yes, bleach is normally hypochlorous acid which will act as a good disinfectant. However I wouldn't recommend it as a sanitizer, certainly not for hands, the requirement is that they both clean and disinfect. So some surfactant would need to be added by the manufacturer and if it's ...[text shortened]... Robbie is to read the instructions on the bottle, they should say what it can safely be used on.

I am a brewer, I turn starches in grains into sugars and then ferment them with yeast. The process however is heavily dependent upon sanitation, any stray yeast strains or other microbes could potentially leave off flavours or turn a batch of beer 'sour'. It has been recommended in the past that one can sanitise with bleach, but i recently heard from a source that bleach does not in fact sanitise. Its PH value is not high enough to be considered good enough to act as a sanitiser. If however you add vinegar to a bleach and water solution, this raises the PH making it a good sanitiser. I just wanted to check this because I have no way of knowing whether its sound or not.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I am a brewer, I turn starches in grains into sugars and then ferment them with yeast. The process however is heavily dependent upon sanitation, any stray yeast strains or other microbes could potentially leave off flavours or turn a batch of beer 'sour'. It has been recommended in the past that one can sanitise with bleach, but i recently heard fr ...[text shortened]... nitiser. I just wanted to check this because I have no way of knowing whether its sound or not.

I distrust your source, but I'm not a chemist. Is this a professional set-up? Hypochlorous acid is effective, but it depends on how much you dilute the bleach. I'd recommend against adding vinegar or anything else unless you've taken advice from a chemist as you don't want to find yourself breathing chlorine. I think you should find a professional to ask. I'm a physicist turned programmer and just don't know enough about the chemistry.

With the rise in micro-breweries (is this what you are running?) then there is likely to be an online "how to do it" but you need to make sure the people who wrote it know their stuff. Look for Association of Brewers (or whatever the industry body is called) accreditations. Also have you had any actual problems? If it's working don't worry about what someone's told you, it's only a problem if it's a problem.

I would recommend cleaning your brewing apparatus thoroughly with water and soap. You don't want toxic substances ending up in your brews.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
I would recommend cleaning your brewing apparatus thoroughly with water and soap. You don't want toxic substances ending up in your brews.

One always rinses, although there are no rinse sanitisers. Personally I prefer heat, it kills just about everything and has no chemicals other than water.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Also keep in mind that excessive sanitation is bad for humans.

For healthy humans, that is. For humans in intensive care, it's definitely necessary. But even then, it's better for them if they've been exposed to a varied set of microbes et al. before they needed to be there.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
I would recommend cleaning your brewing apparatus thoroughly with water and soap. You don't want toxic substances ending up in your brews.

Or at least a cleaning fluid certified as safe for human consumption in post-rinse amounts.

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
Or at least a cleaning fluid certified as safe for human consumption in post-rinse amounts.

Star San was developed by a chemist, many people use it in brewing, its even considered to be a yeast nutrient. Its a no rinse sanitiser.

Its a blend of phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. This synergistic blend provides a unique killing system that is unaffected by excessive organic soils.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Star San was developed by a chemist, many people use it in brewing, its even considered to be a yeast nutrient. Its a no rinse sanitiser.

Its a blend of phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. This synergistic blend provides a unique killing system that is unaffected by excessive organic soils.

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/StarSanTech-HB2.pdf

Can you use steam on the kettles? That would certainly sanitize, that is how they sanitize, sterilize hospital equipment.

How large are the kettles? Can you put them in something larger and just boil them?

If they are large, one thing that works is ultraviolet light. A strong UV light kills bacteria and viruses, it knocks them out of the ball park. It only takes a few minutes also.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Can you use steam on the kettles? That would certainly sanitize, that is how they sanitize, sterilize hospital equipment.

How large are the kettles? Can you put them in something larger and just boil them?

If they are large, one thing that works is ultraviolet light. A strong UV light kills bacteria and viruses, it knocks them out of the ball park. It only takes a few minutes also.

yes you can use steam. Kettles are converted stainless steel beer kegs with heating elements fitted. My small one has two elements that I ripped from two smaller kettles used for making tea and the larger one, elements ripped from a washing machine. They hold roughly about 60-80 litres. Commercial ones are much, much, much bigger. Personally I favour steam because its lack of chemicals and as far as I am aware its a two stage process making it very effective. First you have the heat from the steam itself and then you have another action when the steam condenses. The later stage of the brewing process itself kills just about everything because its carried out at a boil and the hop additions act as an antibacterial although there function is to provide aroma and bitterness. It only when you transfer your 'wort', (unfermented beer) to a fermentation vessel that you need to be careful.

Saying that some beers are fermented entirely open and natural yeasts from the environment encouraged to permeate the beer. Belgians are famous for that kind of thing although others prefer a much greater degree of control.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
does bleach really act as a sanitiser or not?

yes but don't drink it unless u have run out of methys