30 Aug '13 17:41>
When you withdraw cash from your bank, you decrease the value of money in the computers. When you burn the cash, you don't have the chance to put the numbers back into the computer.
Originally posted by rwingettI like Berry, but I’ve read more of his poetry than his essays. The only professional economists that I’ve gotten to talk to (as opposed to read) for a long time are telerion and Palynka (if discussions here count as talking). I did get to read Pal’s master’s thesis, which formed the basis for his dissertation, and subsequently a paper for NBER (which I also read). Although both are pretty much in the neoclassical stream, I think tel is more macro-oriented, and Pal more micro.
You'll learn more about economics by reading Wendell Berry than you will by talking to any professional economists.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtWell, yes. Cash (M0) represents about 48% of M1 (which adds in checkable accounts and travelers checks), and about 11% of M2 (which adds in money-market funds, savings accounts and CDs). But for the sake of the thought-experiment, one could imagine said billionaire withdrawing funds, and then destroying them.
With a fiat currency burning cash isn't going to have much effect. The number of notes in circulation would be down, but I make most transactions electronically now, and I don't think I'm unusual in that. If someone did that it would just annoy the central bank who would simply make another print run, prosecute them and hand the cash to clearing banks ys of spending extra is never a problem for a government, this is what the military is for.
Originally posted by vistesdRight now I'm reading a What Matters?: Economics for a Renewed Commonwealth, by Wendell Berry. That's why I tossed him out there.
I like Berry, but I’ve read more of his poetry than his essays. The only professional economists that I’ve gotten to talk to (as opposed to read) for a long time are telerion and Palynka (if discussions here count as talking). I did get to read Pal’s master’s thesis, which formed the basis for his dissertation, and subsequently a paper for NBER (which I a ...[text shortened]... d Wolff. Do you imagine that the Mondragon Corporation doesn’t employ professional economists?
Originally posted by rwingettI'll have to take a look at that Berry book. I never had a chance to study the "heterodox" schools of economic thought in school, so I've done a bit more of that the last couple of years. The neoclassical orthodoxy, largely minus its more Keynesian wing, is, I think, more entrenched now than when I was in grad school.
Right now I'm reading a [b]What Matters?: Economics for a Renewed Commonwealth, by Wendell Berry. That's why I tossed him out there.
I use "economics" as being synonymous with neoclassical orthodoxy, which is so globally entrenched right now that it hardly seems worthwhile pausing to exempt outliers like Richard Wolff (I've read Occupy the Econom ...[text shortened]... bal economy modeled on neoclassical principals. That doesn't mean they have to like it.
Originally posted by wolfgang59a. simply reduces your wealth by a billion, and the money supply by the same amount.
For arguments sake lets say the goods burnt are ford motor cars and that
there is no benefit to anyone from the heat!
a or b ???
Originally posted by normbenignDestruction of money or goods can never be an economic good.
a. simply reduces your wealth by a billion, and the money supply by the same amount.
b. Increases the GNP by a billion, ford cars sold, inventory must be replaced, workers paid. Your wealth is still reduced by the same amount. It would seem at first glance that this is better economically, until you recognize that a Billion $ of wealth is lost in both d in both cases a billion $ of wealth is destroyed, the economy remains the same in both cases.
Originally posted by vistesdI didn't mean to make a complete analysis in a dynamic economy. This is Econ101.
[b] Destruction of money or goods can never be an economic good.
Generally agreed, but the rest of your analysis implies a static economy with no spending multiplier. I think that is just wrong. And the implicit assumption in the broken window fallacy (at least as you have stated it) is that the glazer does not spend any of his earning’s in the shop ...[text shortened]... multiplier effect.
The size of the multiplier from various sources is an empirical question.[/b]
Originally posted by normbenignI agree that in that single-exchange period there is (can be) no multiplier effect. Static analysis was the “101” of micro analysis, focusing on supply/demand in a single market period; followed by the same “snapshot analysis” over several periods. But I’m pretty sure we covered multipliers pretty early in macro analysis. I’m not saying that the kind of analysis that you’re doing here is invalid—you make good points—just that I think it is unduly limited if you stop there.
I didn't mean to make a complete analysis in a dynamic economy. This is Econ101.
The spending multiplier is a distraction as it would apply to the earnings of the glazer, or the earnings of the shopkeeper. I tried to make the briefest case of Bastiate's story, as it related to the question.
I've seen several economic articles by Keynesians like urned the cash or the cars, he'd have used that wealth to produce similar effects anyway.
Originally posted by vistesdActually, I enjoy your educated and thoughtful comments, without the seeming disparaging remarks from someone who obviously has far more credentials in Econ than I do.
I agree that in that single-exchange period there is (can be) no multiplier effect. Static analysis was the “101” of micro analysis, focusing on supply/demand in a single market period; followed by the same “snapshot analysis” over several periods. But I’m pretty sure we covered multipliers pretty early in macro analysis. I’m not saying that the kind of ...[text shortened]...
Hey, Norm, if I sounded (or sound) snarky, put it down to my writing badly—I don’t mean to be.