Shocking video about the REAL situation in Gaza

Originally posted by Krod Mandoon
That's not really racism, is it?
It's self defense.

There is a reason that people complain when Israel exercises its right to self defense but not when other countries do.

Originally posted by quackquack
There is a reason that people complain when Israel exercises its right to self defense but not when other countries do.

Jew hating is common virtually everywhere. Is there another ethnicity which has been systematically eradicated on national levels, and for decades on end?

Originally posted by sh76
It's a problem, Shav. I understand that. We've had it out about Israel-Palestine in the past and I believe that your views are informed by humanitarianism, not prejudice or anti-Semitism. I also hope that you will acknowledge that my views, while perhaps informed by some innate prejudice of being born Jewish, are not informed by religious doctrine, racism or bl ...[text shortened]... certainly doing do far more effectively than the carriers out of Hamburg, Dresden and Hiroshima.

You say:

The problem is that sometimes there's just no other way than taking actions that have the potential unintended side effect of killing civilians.

The evidence against you includes this:

Israel has the eleventh most powerful military in the world, certainly the strongest by far in the Middle East, and is a nuclear power that has not ratified the non-proliferation agreement and has precise weapons technology. With the use of drones, F-16s and an arsenal of modern weapon technology, Israel has the ability to target single individuals and therefore to avoid civilian casualties. But rather than avoid them, Israel has repeatedly targeted civilians as part of its military operations.

The Dahiya Doctrine is central to these operations and refers to Israel's indiscriminate attacks on Lebanon in 2006. Maj. Gen. Gadi Eizenkot said that this would be applied elsewhere:

What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. […] We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases.

Israel has kept true to this promise. The 2009 UN Fact-Finding Mission to the Gaza Conflict, better known as the Goldstone Mission, concluded "from a review of the facts on the ground that it witnessed for itself that what was prescribed as the best strategy [Dahiya Doctrine] appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."

According to the National Lawyers Guild, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, Israel directly targeted civilians or recklessly caused civilian deaths during Operation Cast Lead. Far from avoiding the deaths of civilians, Israel effectively considers them legitimate targets.

http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

Originally posted by normbenign
Jew hating is common virtually everywhere. Is there another ethnicity which has been systematically eradicated on national levels, and for decades on end?

In a world where minority group seem to be rapidly gaining acceptance. Whether its entertainment (people's favorite athlete or musician routinely being of a different color/ ethnicity or nationality), politics (Obama win a popularity contest for the most powerful job in the world), where social rights (gays are rapidly gaining rights why is there so little progress in hatred toward Jews (Israel is a country trying to defend themselves from missiles being shot at their citizens).

Originally posted by sh76
It's a problem, Shav. I understand that. We've had it out about Israel-Palestine in the past and I believe that your views are informed by humanitarianism, not prejudice or anti-Semitism. I also hope that you will acknowledge that my views, while perhaps informed by some innate prejudice of being born Jewish, are not informed by religious doctrine, racism or bl ...[text shortened]... certainly doing do far more effectively than the carriers out of Hamburg, Dresden and Hiroshima.

You say:

......... Israel did not start the blockade until years after the 2005 withdrawal. Hamas attacks caused the blockade, which caused more Hamas attacks, which caused a tighter blockade, which cases war.

The evidence against your account includes the following for example:

Firstly, the blockade was in response to Hamas winning elections in Gaza in 2006. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006%E2%80%932007_economic_sanctions_against_the_Palestinian_National_Authority
It was not in response to attacks of any kind other than verbal. It was a rejection of the rights of the people in Gaza to the outcome of their own democratic election. The ins and outs are there in the Wiki article so you may assume that I have reminded myself of them.

More to the point, the ostensible case that Gaza ever was separate from Israeli control is both false and contrary to international law.
http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

Israel argues that its occupation of the Gaza Strip ended with the unilateral withdrawal of its settler population in 2005. It then declared the Gaza Strip to be "hostile territory" and declared war against its population. Neither the argument nor the statement is tenable. Despite removing 8,000 settlers and the military infrastructure that protected their illegal presence, Israel maintained effective control of the Gaza Strip and thus remains the occupying power as defined by Article 47 of the Hague Regulations. To date, Israel maintains control of the territory's air space, territorial waters, electromagnetic sphere, population registry and the movement of all goods and people.

Israel argues that the withdrawal from Gaza demonstrates that ending the occupation will not bring peace. Some have gone so far as to say that Palestinians squandered their opportunity to build heaven in order to build a terrorist haven instead. These arguments aim to obfuscate Israel's responsibilities in the Gaza Strip, as well as the West Bank. As Prime Minister Netanyahu once explained, Israel must ensure that it does not "get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria…. I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan."

Palestinians have yet to experience a day of self-governance. Israel immediately imposed a siege upon the Gaza Strip when Hamas won parliamentary elections in January 2006 and tightened it severely when Hamas routed Fatah in June 2007. The siege has created a "humanitarian catastrophe" in the Gaza Strip. Inhabitants will not be able to access clean water, electricity or tend to even the most urgent medical needs. The World Health Organization explains that the Gaza Strip will be unlivable by 2020. Not only did Israel not end its occupation, it has created a situation in which Palestinians cannot survive in the long-term.

Originally posted by quackquack
In a world where minority group seem to be rapidly gaining acceptance. Whether its entertainment (people's favorite athlete or musician routinely being of a different color/ ethnicity or nationality), politics (Obama win a popularity contest for the most powerful job in the world), where social rights (gays are rapidly gaining rights why is there so lit ...[text shortened]... ws (Israel is a country trying to defend themselves from missiles being shot at their citizens).

YouTube

This is over an hour long ( though powerful viewing) so I recommend an edited version which concentrates on the relevant material:

http://hummusforthought.com/2013/12/21/rare-video-mandela-speaking-on-palestine/

It is still best to have the full video available from another source to resolve any paranoid fears about the accuracy of the edits.

And the point of all this is that Nelson Mandela, speaking to a pretty hostile interviewer in New York with Jewish people there to challenge his opinions, and even being threatened that the ANC might lose the support of the USA, this being before the end of apartheid, nevertheless expressed his support for the PLO and for Yassar Arafat and insisted that until the Palestinians are free, the South Africans cannot be truly free.

So was Mandela racist?

Bear in mind that at this time and for years before, Israel was a close ally of apartheid South Africa. It is no coincidence that they shared so many practices.

You need to give some thought to the way you play around with accusations of racism or anti-semitism. Your commentary in this forum has been consistently ill informed and offensive.

Originally posted by normbenign
Jew hating is common virtually everywhere. Is there another ethnicity which has been systematically eradicated on national levels, and for decades on end?

See my response to quackquack above. Your posts on this topic are offensive and not supported by any reasonable justification.

Originally posted by quackquack
I believe racism is the crux of the issue. I live in the United States and if anyone group a missile into my country there would be no doubt that without any discussion and concern for collateral damage the group would be eliminated immediately. I cannot fault any country for striking back to protects its citizens.

You repeat several times the claim that Israel is exercising its right to self-defence. That claim has been refuted many times, as for example in the following which it would be useful for you to read carefully and try your best to understand.
http://m.thenation.com/article/180783-five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked

As the occupying power of the Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Territories more broadly, Israel has an obligation and a duty to protect the civilians under its occupation. It governs by military and law enforcement authority to maintain order, protect itself and protect the civilian population under its occupation. It cannot simultaneously occupy the territory, thus usurping the self-governing powers that would otherwise belong to Palestinians, and declare war upon them. These contradictory policies (occupying a land and then declaring war on it) make the Palestinian population doubly vulnerable.

The precarious and unstable conditions in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians suffer are Israel's responsibility. Israel argues that it can invoke the right to self-defense under international law as defined in Article 51 of the UN Charter. The International Court of Justice, however, rejected this faulty legal interpretation in its 2004 Advisory Opinion. The ICJ explained that an armed attack that would trigger Article 51 must be attributable to a sovereign state, but the armed attacks by Palestinians emerge from within Israel's jurisdictional control. Israel does have the right to defend itself against rocket attacks, but it must do so in accordance with occupation law and not other laws of war. Occupation law ensures greater protection for the civilian population. The other laws of war balance military advantage and civilian suffering. The statement that "no country would tolerate rocket fire from a neighboring country" is therefore both a diversion and baseless.

Israel denies Palestinians the right to govern and protect themselves, while simultaneously invoking the right to self-defense. This is a conundrum and a violation of international law, one that Israel deliberately created to evade accountability.

Originally posted by normbenign
Jew hating is common virtually everywhere. Is there another ethnicity which has been systematically eradicated on national levels, and for decades on end?

Odd how on this site the "liberals" seem to be so anti-Israeli (anti-jew).
What's up with that?

The post that was quoted here has been removed

The reality seems to be genocide, apartheid and war crimes.

I really see no condemnation of the cowardly strategy
of hiding behind women and kids. That's the only crime
in this while thing.

Of course, not that I was expecting it from a tiny mind.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Given that these people accused me of supporting murderers and killers, it is a bit sickening to observe the pleasure so many of them took in drooling over the war machines at the outset of this thread. The unsupported lies that I have responded to in this thread alone with evidence that refutes their claims included

- Hamas attacks on Israel caused the economic blockade of Gaza (false)

- Hamas aggression caused the current attack on Gaza (false - Israel started it; Israel knew long before admitting it that Hamas did not kill the 3 Israeli teenagers e.g.)

- Hamas rockets caused Israeli response (false - the cause and effect run in the reverse direction)

- Israel is acting in self defence (false - Israel is the occupying power)

- Civilian, especially child casualties of the IDF are regrettable tragedies (False - Israel explicitly targets the civilian population and explicitly sets out to cause disproportionate harm)

- If Palestinians did not threaten Israel then they could prosper and be left in peace (False on so many grounds it is sick; Israel controls all the resources of this territory and is working to get control over Gaza natural gas reserves; the Palestinians will never be allowed a viable economy under Israeli policy)

- Opponents of the Israeli violence are motivated by racism or anti-semitism (false - I gave the example of Mandela's support for the PLO and you gave the example of Israelis speaking out).

- Most of all I have rejected treating the victims of this brutality as nameless non-people by listing names and giving links to more names.

You will not find anywhere in my posts that I have supported violence against Israel by the way nor even that I have supported Hamas, other than to demand a truthful account of their role. I have instead supported the Palestinian people for only this reason - their humanity, which I share fully.

Originally posted by finnegan
You say:

......... [b]Israel did not start the blockade until years after the 2005 withdrawal. Hamas attacks caused the blockade, which caused more Hamas attacks, which caused a tighter blockade, which cases war.

The evidence against your account includes the following for example:

Firstly, the blockade was in response to Hamas winnin ...[text shortened]... and outs are there in the Wiki article so you may assume that I have reminded myself of them.
[/b]

That is incorrect.

While economic sanctions were imposed following Hamas' taking power in 2006 (and not just by Israel), the blockade didn't start until June of 2007, which followed a month of May in which something like 100 rockets were launched from Gaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Blockade_timeline_2007-2010

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2007

Economic sanctions are used by countries as peaceful means of diplomacy all the time while blockade is an act of war. Surely it is imprecise to ignore this distinction.