THIS is a Republican I would vote for!

Originally posted by MISTER CHESS
Ridiculous! Unemployment hardly effects minimum wage jobs anyway because a place like McDonalds will just take a few items off of the dollar menu, the main source of unemployment comes from industrial companies like Boeing because better technology and outsourcing eliminates the need for high paid workers

Now, if you want to make a case that raising ...[text shortened]... on rates. The problem is that minimum wage increases happen long after the damage has been done.

Not generally the way it works. The minimum wage worker is most effected by unemployment, especially if the increase is way off the market trend.

In Michigan, the last increase was just about the market trend, so it was not needed, and didn't cause any wage distortion. That seems at least partly what you argue, but mixed up with some stuff I can't quite figure out.

Originally posted by Hugh Glass
I would maintain my work force of 4 at the new wages, and gradually 1. raise prices to cover the added cost 2. find ways to reduce my overhead.... kind of how things work right?

Actually, Hugh, there isn't a specific formula which works for every business. Pizza shops are two types, delivery/pickup, and eat in or like Pizza Hut combinations.

The ingredients component make pizza a highly profitable business, but other costs complicate matters. Rent, location, size of plant, and inventory control. How much do you throw away every night? Price fluctuations of inventory items can be huge, and the public's taste varies. How many local shops do you see come and go?

Usually, a wait and see and make small changes prevails, until the owner decides what to do. A very common result is that all four workers lose their jobs and the owner shuts down.

Originally posted by quackquack
I like how you ignore an example when it leads to a conclusion that you do not like.
Baby sitting is a job where people often get less than minimum wage and thus if you followed the law a higher minimum wage would increase costs. I picked that one because it is a job people understand. I used to work for a veterinarian and people who bathe dogs/ cle ...[text shortened]... No business person wants to lose money and jobs which do not make profits would be eliminated.

I don't like irrational conclusions so I ignore them. Big whoop.

How does an unofficial job like babysitting for people that want to enjoy a social life have anything to do with unemployment?

Originally posted by normbenign
Not generally the way it works. The minimum wage worker is most effected by unemployment, especially if the increase is way off the market trend.

In Michigan, the last increase was just about the market trend, so it was not needed, and didn't cause any wage distortion. That seems at least partly what you argue, but mixed up with some stuff I can't quite figure out.

Well we can look at the unemployment rate which is the lowest it has been since 2009 while min wage is higher than it has ever been.

Ron Paul should've been president.

Originally posted by MISTER CHESS
Well we can look at the unemployment rate which is the lowest it has been since 2009 while min wage is higher than it has ever been.

Statistics and statisticians lie. The unemployment numbers are the most manipulated in existence. Look at particular low paying jobs which have completely disappeared due to minimum wage increases. One I remember is the gas pump jockey. It no longer exists, and you pump your own fuel as a result. There are many other examples of jobs eliminated by minimum wage laws. The ones that really suffer are those without alternatives, the low skilled worker without experience.

Interesting, but for a long time probably a couple of decades of more, the sub minimum wage for wait staff persists. What do you suppose would happen to the restaurant business if wait staff were granted $15 /hour minimum wage.

Originally posted by vivify
Ron Paul should've been president.

I don't know how that fits in this thread, but I voted for him more than once.

Originally posted by sh76
Apples and oranges. You can't choose minute characteristics of the economy to compare between eras unless you control for everything else.

In any case, interestingly, though you lashed out at me for saying it, you answered your own question a few lines later. The very fact that jobs can be outsourced is what prevents minimum wages from being effective. If Ni ...[text shortened]... blem with raising the top marginal tax brackets, but that has very little to do with this issue.

I didn't actually "lash out" at you. I genuinely thought you were being sarcastic. When you said that increasing the minimum wage to $12 per hour will eliminate a million jobs overnight, I thought that was so ludicrous that you couldn't possibly be serious. I just assumed that you were -mocking- conservative propaganda. I was astonished to find out that you actually believe what you wrote. (I'm just explaining myself, here, not attacking you. And I have Aspergers, which somewhat impairs my ability to make social judgements about what's sarcasm and what isn't.)

I'm glad we're in agreement about paying off the national debt by raising the top marginal tax rates for the rich and corporations. And yes, I'm very much in favor of restricting the power of trans-national corporations. The Government of the United States of America should not be a mere appendage to corporate interests. If Nike employ foreign workers for less than the federal minimum wage, then they shouldn't be allowed to sell those products in the U.S. A corporation that employs foreign workers should be considered a foreign corporation, operating outside of U.S. law, and thus there are tariffs to consider.

Originally posted by normbenign
Statistics and statisticians lie. The unemployment numbers are the most manipulated in existence. Look at particular low paying jobs which have completely disappeared due to minimum wage increases. One I remember is the gas pump jockey. It no longer exists, and you pump your own fuel as a result. There are many other examples of jobs eliminated by mi ...[text shortened]... ppose would happen to the restaurant business if wait staff were granted $15 /hour minimum wage.

Higher living wages for low-income workers have a stimulative effect for the economy, reducing the risk and intensity of recessions by reducing wealth and income disparity (in concert with higher marginal tax rates on the rich and corporations). The benefits to the economy from raising the minimum wage are enormous, and outweigh the negatives of losing a few odd jobs along the way. And if a job really needs to be done, then an employer will pay for it. Most employers can afford to pay decent wages, and the few that can't don't deserve to be in business. They've only made their business work by cutting corners at the expense of worker dignity. For another thing, many businesses are able to pass along the costs to the consumer if needed, thus having a positive redistributive effect on the economy.

Originally posted by normbenign
Not generally the way it works. The minimum wage worker is most effected by unemployment, especially if the increase is way off the market trend.

In Michigan, the last increase was just about the market trend, so it was not needed, and didn't cause any wage distortion. That seems at least partly what you argue, but mixed up with some stuff I can't quite figure out.

A decent income for welfare beneficiaries -also- stimulates the economy, for the reasons I noted in my previous post. A decent minimum wage ensures that welfare beneficiaries have an incentive to take work once it becomes available. So there are no costs to welfare beneficiaries, only to the economy from a small amount of jobs being lost, and the employers concerned were obviously not efficient and productive in the first place. Overall, the economy benefits greatly from a higher minimum wage, the workers benefit, and welfare beneficiaries aren't harmed.

Originally posted by sasquatch672
I credit Teinosuke for showing me the light on this issue. I'm fully won over on a living minimum wage and ending corporate welfare.

What did Teinosuke say to convince you?

Originally posted by karnachz
I didn't actually "lash out" at you. I genuinely thought you were being sarcastic. When you said that increasing the minimum wage to $12 per hour will eliminate a million jobs overnight, I thought that was so ludicrous that you couldn't possibly be serious. I just assumed that you were -mocking- conservative propaganda. I was astonished to find out that you ...[text shortened]... ed a foreign corporation, operating outside of U.S. law, and thus there are tariffs to consider.

I'm sorry about your condition. For future reference, a statement could be a hyperbole even if not sarcastic. I didn't literally mean "a million jobs overnight." I meant "many jobs in a relatively short period of time." For better of for worse, a little hyperbole is a standard device on internet message boards, since we all want to make strong points and we don't have the time to be painstakingly exact.

As for your second paragraph, that sort of protectionism would require a radical shift in philosophy. Perhaps protectionism is something to look into more closely, but until that happens, I was explaining why higher minimum wage will not necessarily have a net positive effect.

Originally posted by normbenign
I don't know how that fits in this thread, but I voted for him more than once.

He's the only Republican I'd vote for right now.

Originally posted by karnachz
Higher living wages for low-income workers have a stimulative effect for the economy, reducing the risk and intensity of recessions by reducing wealth and income disparity (in concert with higher marginal tax rates on the rich and corporations). The benefits to the economy from raising the minimum wage are enormous, and outweigh the negatives of losing a fe ...[text shortened]... he costs to the consumer if needed, thus having a positive redistributive effect on the economy.

"Higher living wages for low-income workers have a stimulative effect for the economy", if they are market driven, that is the service provided by the employee is worth the pay. If it is not, the employer isn't in business to provide jobs. If he can make the same money without employees will he not do so?

Where does the money come from, the tooth fairy. That too benefits the economy.

GM couldn't afford to pay the wages and benefits it had been paying, neither could Chrysler. Is it better that the workers took wage cuts, or should those businesses have gone under?

Your statements indicate you have never been in business, never made a payroll, probably never hired a worker. And the stuff you are regurgitating you've heard from others with no experience running a business.

Originally posted by sh76
I'm sorry about your condition. For future reference, a statement could be a hyperbole even if not sarcastic. I didn't literally mean "a million jobs overnight." I meant "many jobs in a relatively short period of time." For better of for worse, a little hyperbole is a standard device on internet message boards, since we all want to make strong points and we don ...[text shortened]... ppens, I was explaining why higher minimum wage will not necessarily have a net positive effect.

Protectionism has never been good for any economy. It has negative effects on both the protected and protectors.