Organically Grown Fruits and Vegetables

Originally posted by humy
This, if true, wouldn't contradict anything I claimed there and is irrelevant to what I just said.

This is what you said:

"I think I should also point out that many if not most pesticides these days are either biodegradable or spontaneously degrade relatively quickly (with, for example, half gone every day depending on which sort it is or the conditions such as temperature ) and that means the fermentation precess would destroy many types of pesticides"

I found one that that is not destroyed by the fermentation process and is one of the most common pesticides used. My point is that your assertion that I should not be concerned about pesticides in my wine batch is not accurate.

This is my source of information.

http://organicvineyardalliance.com/pesticide-fact-sheet/

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its funny how suddenly for alcohol, moderation is harmless but only in larger quantities can it cause cancer, but when it is pesticides, quantities don't matter at all, they must be avoided as they can cause cancer even in moderation.

In reality, wine can cause cancer even in moderation, and the risk of cancer from moderate alcohol consumption is high ...[text shortened]... in our discussions although I probably learned more from Wikipedia prompted by our discussions.

I didn't say it is harmless, but moderate drinking of alcohol has been shown to have some health benefits. I'll assume you think the risks outweigh the benefits, but that is another debate entirely. Perhaps you might like to start another thread on that one, but it probably belongs in the debate forum. I would guess it would be more of an opinion than anything. I doubt it could be proven either way.

"alcohol consumption is higher than the risk of cancer from pesticides found on ordinary foods."

I don't agree with that statement at all.

Originally posted by Metal Brain
I didn't say it is harmless, but moderate drinking of alcohol has been shown to have some health benefits.

Other posters have claimed that this finding has been overturned. But I personally have no opinion either way.

I'll assume you think the risks outweigh the benefits,
No, but you seem to think that way about pesticides. All I am saying is that there is a known cancer risk for even moderate amounts of alcohol, which you seem happy to ignore, claiming that in moderate amounts the risk goes away - yet when it comes to pesticides, you use different logic.

I would guess it would be more of an opinion than anything. I doubt it could be proven either way.
Without scientific studies, yes. But there may have been studies done, I wouldn't know.

I don't agree with that statement at all.
Thats because you like your wine.

Originally posted by Metal Brain
This is what you said:

"I think I should also point out that many if not most pesticides these days are either biodegradable or spontaneously degrade relatively quickly (with, for example, half gone every day depending on which sort it is or the conditions such as temperature ) and that means the fermentation precess would destroy many types of pestic ...[text shortened]...
This is my source of information.

http://organicvineyardalliance.com/pesticide-fact-sheet/

How does me saying “...many if not most ...“ equate with saying “...all...”? "many" and even "most" doesn't equate with "all".

As I said, nothing you said there contradicts what I had said even if true.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
hardly, does acid not break down fat? Is wine not acidic and therefore helps the body break down fat? are you sure you have employed the scientific method for this seems elementary my dear Watson.

does acid not break down fat?

what has that got to do with my post? How does it relate?
I was talking about alcohol and cancer rates, not how alcohol effects fat.

Is wine not acidic

wine happens to be slightly acidic.

and therefore helps the body break down fat?

No, wine doesn't help break down body fat. Where did you get that from?
Your inference is also false with your inappropriate insertion of the word "therefore" as one doesn't logically follow from the other.

Wine contains calories because it contains alcohol which contains calories and so, despite containing only trace amounts of fat at most, can indirectly contribute towards obesity if (and only if ) your total dietary calorie intake is too high. So, if anything, it can sometimes have the opposite effect.
See:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/03/health/wine-waistline/
“...Alcohol temporarily keeps your body from burning fat ...”

http://www.medicinenet.com/alcohol_and_nutrition/page3.htm
“...A study of over 3,000 people showed that consuming elevated amounts of alcohol is associated with abdominal obesity in men ...”

But, of course, this is entirely dependent on your overall calorie consumption verses calorie burning else merely drinking alcohol won't make you more likely to get fat in particular but nor would it help you get rid of fat.

Alcohol would generally increase your risk of cancer (see the science links I provided that shows this ) although this is usually less risk than from smoking but still generally far more risk than from pesticide residues judging from the evidence we have up to date. I would only conclude something different from that if or when evidence becomes apparent to contradict all the previous evidence else our default assumption that there is generally no significant risk from pesticide residues in most cases should rationally stay the same. That is just how scientific thinking works -base our conclusions of what is probably true solely on evidence and flawless logic and then only change our conclusion if and when new evidence implies we should.

Originally posted by humy

does acid not break down fat?

what has that got to do with my post? How does it relate?
I was talking about alcohol and cancer rates, not how alcohol effects fat.

Is wine not acidic

wine happens to be slightly acidic.

and [b]therefore helps the body break down fat?

No, wine doesn't hel ...[text shortened]... d flawless logic and then only change our conclusion if and when new evidence implies we should.[/b]

Are you sure you're a scientist Humyfield? I have serious reservations. I also have serious reservations about your ability to assimilate the jist of a thread in a non abstract way.

Digestion and Wine

There is a reason that cultures around the world have made it a standard practice to enjoy wine along with food. Yes, it tastes wonderfully together - but there is a more encompassing reason. The ingestion of wine helps the food digest more easily.

The first thing to understand is how the stomach digests. When you eat food - let's say a 1" cube of steak - it doesn't plunk down into an empty stomach and just sit there, waiting to fall apart over time. Your stomach senses the presence of a food item and starts to release very powerful gastric acids. Those acids eat away at the food item, in this case the steak cube. The acids break down the steak into tiny protein and fat pieces, which then move through the stomach lining and into the blood stream. The blood moves those nutrients around through the body so they can reach their proper destinations. The fats might help the brain work more smoothly. The proteins might help to rebuild a leg muscle.

The issue is that a given food item is not 100% full of beneficial items. So for example turkey can have lipid hydroperoxides in it. So your body wants to take in the many great healthy aspects of turkey - but NOT take in the lipid hydroperoxides. The antioxidants naturally found in wines attack those lipid hydroperoxides, helping to break them down. So the end result is that the body does not have to deal with these harmful chemicals, and therefore is much less likely to get certain cancers as a result.

http://www.wineintro.com/basics/health/digestion.html

Originally posted by twhitehead
Other posters have claimed that this finding has been overturned. But I personally have no opinion either way.

[b]I'll assume you think the risks outweigh the benefits,
No, but you seem to think that way about pesticides. All I am saying is that there is a known cancer risk for even moderate amounts of alcohol, which you seem happy to ignore, cla ...[text shortened]... n't know.

I don't agree with that statement at all.
Thats because you like your wine.[/b]

Even Dasani bottled water contains additives that are questionable.
Do you drink it?

http://wellnessandequality.com/2014/02/19/dasani-bottled-water-has-4-ingredients-tap-water-known-teratogen-lethal-drug-and-salt/

Originally posted by humy
How does me saying “...many if not most ...“ equate with saying “...all...”? "many" and even "most" doesn't equate with "all".

As I said, nothing you said there contradicts what I had said even if true.

Do you admit that biodegradable pesticides are in wine that is made with non-organically grown grapes?

Originally posted by Metal Brain
Do you admit that biodegradable pesticides are in wine that is made with non-organically grown grapes?

In generally trace non-hazardous amounts, yes; just like I would admit the alcohol, which is both potentially and far more likely to be more harmful to health, are in wine that is made with grapes regardless of whether they are organically grown grapes.

Originally posted by Metal Brain
Even Dasani bottled water contains additives that are questionable.
Do you drink it?

Never even heard of it before. I live in South Africa.
But if I read a report saying that it was as bad for me as wine, then no, I would not drink it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The ingestion of wine helps the food digest more easily.

So it is likely to be fattening.
You really should think before you post.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Are you sure you're a scientist Humyfield? I have serious reservations. I also have serious reservations about your ability to assimilate the jist of a thread in a non abstract way.

Digestion and Wine

There is a reason that cultures around the world have made it a standard practice to enjoy wine along with food. Yes, it tastes wonderfully tog ...[text shortened]... ly to get certain cancers as a result.

http://www.wineintro.com/basics/health/digestion.html

The ingestion of wine helps the food digest more easily.

I haven't been given any convincing evidence of this to date although it could well be that no proper vigorous scientific study has been done on this.

Your stomach senses the presence of a food item and starts to release very powerful gastric acids.

gastric acids don't come from wine.
As for “The antioxidants naturally found in wines attack those lipid hydroperoxides,”, firstly, you previously said that the wine helped digestion because it is “acidic”, which doesn't equate with it having antioxidants.
So this would appear to confirm that your previous inference was false just like I said it was. Reminder of what you said: " Is wine not acidic and therefore helps the body break down fat?..."

Secondly, although I don't deny there could be such evidence, there is currently no evidence that I am personally aware of that neutralizing “lipid hydroperoxides” would be helpful with digestion in particular and I presume you would digest the food just fine without wine at I do all the time. Can you show a link that gives actual EVIDENCE of it being helpful? Perhaps one that gives some sort of evidence of less incidence of ingestion or some other specific health benefit from drinking wine preferably backed up by some hard irrefutable statistics and which has passed through peer review? Else all this is is just pure theory, not fact.

But, thirdly, and most importantly I think, even if wine does help with digestion and even if this was a proven scientific fact, that wouldn't help much because the fact remains that there is hard statical evidence that even moderate drinking alcohol increases the risk of cancer by a measurable albeit modest amount and there is no evidence that I am aware of that wine would be a special exception. I don't deny the possibility such evidence might exist somewhere unknown to me but, until if or when I am presented with some real evidence that wine is a special exception, I will naturally (and I would say perfectly rationally ) assume wine is no such exception and therefore it increase the risk of cancer just like any other alcoholic drink.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So it is likely to be fattening.
You really should think before you post.

I have not questioned whether drinking alcohol is fattening, what i have actually stated is that it helps break down fats during digestion. You really should learn to understand what people are posting prior to typing, it just may save you from looking like a slaphead in future, but i doubt it.

Originally posted by humy

The ingestion of wine helps the food digest more easily.

I haven't been given any convincing evidence of this to date although it could well be that no proper vigorous scientific study has been done on this.

Your stomach senses the presence of a food item and starts to release very powerful gastric acids.

gastric ...[text shortened]... such exception and therefore it increase the risk of cancer just like any other alcoholic drink.

that you are not personally aware is not an argument, the article cited contradicts the claim and offers a reason why drinking moderate amounts of wine may even reduce the risk of cancer.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have not questioned whether drinking alcohol is fattening, what i have actually stated is that it helps break down fats during digestion.

So you were listing the bad points of drinking alcohol?