Originally posted by PatNovak If angels have free will, and in the past some rebelled at least partially because they had free will, is there any reason to assume angels wouldn't rebel again?
The Angels have a pretty good shot at getting into the postseason. That's all that matters.
Originally posted by PatNovak So is it fair to say you view another rebellion as unlikely but not impossible? And is it possible to entirely eliminate the possibility of rebellion if free will exists?
I think it's fair to compare free will among angels and men up to a certain point. But I don't think we can make an exact correlation between the two for reasons I've already stated. And for me to say the two realms are not exactly the same would be an understatement.
Unlikely but not impossible misses the point... for some of us to acknowledge Gods existence is unlikely but not impossible. It's impossible for angels to not know God exists and what can happen to them if they defy him. So I would say it's 100% unlikely there are any angels now who would want to suffer the same fate they know is in store for Satan (formerly known as Lucifer).
Rebellion in heaven was put to an end because Satan is no longer there to work his influence over other angels... he was booted out for being a trouble maker.
Originally posted by lemon lime It's impossible for angels to not know God exists and what can happen to them if they defy him. So I would say it's 100% unlikely there are any angels now who would want to suffer the same fate they know is in store for Satan (formerly known as Lucifer).
You seem to be claiming that although it is possible for an angel to not know that God exists, it was possible in the past for an angel to not know the consequences of its actions.
I of course think you are making this all up and don't really have a clue about angels.
Originally posted by lemon lime I think it's fair to compare free will among angels and men up to a certain point. But I don't think we can make an exact correlation between the two for reasons I've already stated. And for me to say the two realms are not exactly the same would be an understatement.
Unlikely but not impossible misses the point... for some of us to acknowledge Gods ex ...[text shortened]... would want to suffer the same fate they know is in store for Satan (formerly known as Lucifer).
If we assume the following:
1) angels have rebelled in the past, so it is possible for angels to rebel
2) angels rebelling in the future, for reasons you have stated, is an extremely low probability event
3) angels will exist for eternity (an infinite amount of time)
The logical conclusion one should reach is that another rebellion is an absolute certainty, because even the lowest probability event will occur over an infinite amount of time.
Originally posted by PatNovak If we assume the following:
1) angels have rebelled in the past, so it is possible for angels to rebel
2) angels rebelling in the future, for reasons you have stated, is an extremely low probability event
3) angels will exist for eternity (an infinite amount of time)
The logical conclusion one should reach is that another rebellion is an absolute certainty, because even the lowest probability event will occur over an infinite amount of time.
Like any other soap opera, it will go on and on, just as long as there are sponsors willing to spend money.
Originally posted by twhitehead You seem to be claiming that although it is possible for an angel to not know that God exists, it was possible in the past for an angel to not know the consequences of its actions.
I of course think you are making this all up and don't really have a clue about angels.
You seem to be claiming that although it is possible for an angel to not know that God exists...
I thought it seemed I was saying it is not possible for an angel to not know that God exists.
I of course think you are making this all up and don't really have a clue about angels.
Based on what? You're extensive knowledge of the Bible, or on your ability to think I've said the opposite of what I actually said?
Originally posted by lemon lime I thought it seemed I was saying it is not possible for an angel to not know that God exists.
Sorry, a typo, I did mean to say 'not possible to not know'.
Based on what? You're extensive knowledge of the Bible, or on your ability to think I've said the opposite of what I actually said? Based on my intuition that you are making it all up. If you are not making it up, would you care to enlighten us as to where you are getting it from?
Originally posted by PatNovak If we assume the following:
1) angels have rebelled in the past, so it is possible for angels to rebel
2) angels rebelling in the future, for reasons you have stated, is an extremely low probability event
3) angels will exist for eternity (an infinite amount of time)
The logical conclusion one should reach is that another rebellion is an absolute certainty, because even the lowest probability event will occur over an infinite amount of time.
100% unlikely does not mean extremely low probability. The wording was a bit tricky, but 100% pretty much means 100%. It's like the difference between saying an infinitely small number and zero... there is no difference.
If you fall out of a tree and break your leg, or you see someone falling out of a tree and breaking their leg, what is the probability that you (as a human and not an angel) will learn from that and try to avoid breaking your leg in the future?
Perhaps angels are quick learners and don't forget what they've witnessed firsthand. Angels are not people, so it's a mistake to assume everything we know about people can be applied to them.
Originally posted by twhitehead Sorry, a typo, I did mean to say 'not possible to not know'.
[b]Based on what? You're extensive knowledge of the Bible, or on your ability to think I've said the opposite of what I actually said? Based on my intuition that you are making it all up. If you are not making it up, would you care to enlighten us as to where you are getting it from?[/b]
You wouldn't have to rely on intuition if you had read the Bible, because then you would know if I was making this up or not.
But why would you need to guess? This information is available to you and has been for a very long time. Are Bibles unavailable where you live? You don't actually need a hard copy of the Bible, you could find out about this for yourself online... but this would entail going to websites that could cause you to become blind from flashes of supernatural light, so you're probably better off playing it safe and remaining ignorant.
Originally posted by lemon lime 100% unlikely does not mean extremely low probability. The wording was a bit tricky, but 100% pretty much means 100%. It's like the difference between saying an infinitely small number and zero... there is no difference.
The reason the wording is tricky is because you are trying to claim that "100% unlikely" means two mutually exclusive things (that it simultaneously means impossible and unlikely). Something cannot be both impossible and unlikely, and the fact that you are trying to claim "100% unlikely" means both of these things is an indication of how weak your argument is.
Edit: If we were talking about a finite time frame, your point that extremely unlikely is roughly the same as impossible would be valid. But over an infinite time frame, impossible and unlikely always lead to opposite outcomes.
Originally posted by lemon lime I have asked myself the same question, and I think there are plenty of reasons to believe it won't happen again with angels.
The only angels who didn't rebel the first time are still angels. People come and go, new people are born every day to live out their lives and die... but not so with angels or the angels who became demons. I doubt there are ange ...[text shortened]... s agents or as followers of the one who started out as the alpha dog numero uno angel in heaven.
I agree, I'd also point out (my belief) that evil once it was the table is
getting its full display. I used to wonder why God didn't just zap them as
soon as it occurred, but I believe you nailed the reason for that not
happening. Those that didn't rebel could have wondered what is God holding
back from us? Now, we see evil for what it is at every level, and I dare say
now in the middle east with little kids being beheaded, it doesn't get much
worse than that.
Kelly
Originally posted by PatNovak The reason the wording is tricky is because you are trying to claim that "100% unlikely" means two mutually exclusive things (that it simultaneously means impossible and unlikely). Something cannot be both impossible and unlikely, and the fact that you are trying to claim "100% unlikely" means both of these things is an indication of how weak your argument is.
Can you agree that the spiritual realm might in any way be different from the physical realm?
If you want to quibble over words then fine, I'll change 100% unlikely to impossible. It's impossible for angles to be stupid enough to not understand the consequences of what can happen if they rebel again, which won't happen because the only reason a rebellion broke out the first time is because of Satan... who is no longer there to take a second shot at fomenting a riot... which probably wouldn't happen anyway because both angels and demons are smart enough to know how it would all turn out again.
Originally posted by lemon lime Can you agree that the spiritual realm might in any way be different from the physical realm?
If you want to quibble over words then fine, I'll change 100% unlikely to impossible. It's impossible for angles to be stupid enough to not understand the consequences of what can happen if they rebel again, which won't happen because the only reason a rebelli ...[text shortened]... because both angels and demons are smart enough to know how it would all turn out [b]again.[/b]
I think you are arguing two somewhat contradictory things. You argue that we cannot completely understand the "spiritual realm" or the way angels think. Also, you argue that an angelic rebellion is impossible. The only way a person should be able to argue that an angelic rebellion is impossible is if they have complete understanding of the situation, but you have argued that we cannot completely understand this situation.
But if either an angel or human does rebel sometime in the future after satan is finally destroyed and all his challenges and accusations that God did not have the right to be the almighty and rightful ruler of all he's created, would God let the madness start over again that satan tricked Adam and Eve into following satans suggestions to turn from God and rebel?
Certianly not as God would had once and for all let satan, his demons and all the humans that have followed satan either directly or by doing nothing more then not doing as God has asked us to do in our daily life's that his son Jesus directed his followers to do.
All those issues would finally be settled by the time God has allowed to pass since Adam.
13 Aug '14 18:201 edit
A Bible related question regarding free will
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