Spirituality
25 Mar 14
26 Mar 14
Originally posted by FMFThe success was from fishermen and a depised tax collector and a physician and a dude who actually hated Christians does not make sense really but for me that adds credibility to the story. The fact that most of these people ended up paying for their beliefs with there lives also adds credibility to the story. What gain could Paul have gained by giving up being a devout well respected Jew to follow Jesus ? It ended up being His death ticket. I think they were compelled to write what they had seen and heard. I think John said as much that He wrote what He wrote so that the deeds of Jesus would be known.
The people who created the religion centred around their story of Jesus indeed established something that was and has been highly successful.
Manny
26 Mar 14
2 edits
I leave with this even if the story is not true and Jesus was just a wiseman the teachings taken at face value are noble and teaches one to love our enemies and help the poor and do acts of charity. It's sad that many who claim Christ do not do these things.
This is a judgement on myself as much as anyone.
Manny
26 Mar 14
Originally posted by menace71Why do you feel it (what you posted) is a judgement on you Manny?
I leave with this even if the story is not true and Jesus was just a wiseman the teachings taken at face value are noble and teaches one to love our enemies and help the poor and do acts of charity. It's sad that many who claim Christ do not do these things.
This is a judgement on myself as much as anyone.
Manny
26 Mar 14
Originally posted by menace71I say Jesus is all those and the Creator and Savior of the world.
Who was (is) Jesus ? A real person ? A prophet or wise man? A Spiritual being ? Was he a son of God ? Or the one and only Son of God ? Is He God (the trinity) ? Was He flesh and Blood like the rest of us ?
Manny
26 Mar 14
Originally posted by Rajk999But all you have of 'his' commandments are the hearsay from other people. He never wrote anything down himself, since he was illiterate. So all you have is what other people purported about him which is usually packed with exaggerations and outright lies.
None of those things are of any value. People will argue about irrelevancies until the cows come home. What is of value is if we follow His commandments. Nothing else matters.
26 Mar 14
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFMuslims would disagree, but yes they were.
They were trying to establish a breakaway religion centred around him.
So why would they try to create a break away religion? To what benefit to themselves personally?
If you look at the 12 disciples, all were martyred except John who probably should have been. Instead, he was held prisoner and later wrote Revelation.
Why were all 12 willing to surrender their lives for it? In fact, the early Christians were persecuted beyond measure by both the Romans and the Jewish Orthodoxy.
Looking at most religious movements, we see men like Joseph Smith or even Mohammad, either write a religious book by themselves or dictate it so someone to write. Then they use that religion to benefit themselves materially in some way. Other religious cults have teachings that are either mad or leaders that are mad and end in destruction of its members. But with Christianity it is different. We don't have the central leader using his religion to elevate himself to power. Instead, we have a leader who is humble and who is giving his life for his followers.
Do keep in mind that the Jewish religion talks about the Messiah coming. This is something that is a fulfillment of the religion, so it's not as if a group of men made this up all on their own during the time of Jesus. In fact, in the Talmud it is said that Daniel gives a calendar for the coming of the Messiah in Daniel 9:24-27 and that is points to the time of Jesus. Of course, sense the Jews rejected Jesus rabbis wrote in the Talmud that the average Jew should not try to calculate the calendar in Daniel and that the Messiah delays his coming because of the sinfulness of Israel.
In fact, read Isaiah 53. Either his followers wrote the gospels to match it word for word, or the prophesy came true. Regardless, they could not have done this with Daniel 9:24-27 because the calendar was written some 500 years before Christ walked the earth.
26 Mar 14
2 edits
Originally posted by FMFSpecifically they would argue that his 12 disciples did not try to create a new religion. They would probably argue that Paul was the culprit.
Muslims would disagree that Christians established a religion centred on Jesus? What an odd thing to say. Which Muslims are you talking about?
At least, this is what I've learned from talking to them.
Oh, and they don't believe Jesus actually died on the cross because the cross puts a kink in their theology. After all, why would God allow it? Their theology is more that God will conquer with the sword rather than die for his people, following the example of Mohammad.
26 Mar 14
Originally posted by whodeyYou got any links to real Islamic web sites, as opposed to evangelical Christian sites?
Specifically they would argue that his 12 disciples did not try to create a new religion. They would probably argue that Paul was the culprit.
At least, this is what I've learned from talking to them.
I've lived in a Muslim country for many years and have never once heard it claimed that the early Christians were not trying to establish their religion based on the figure of Christ.
26 Mar 14
Originally posted by whodeyWell it's only recorded in Christian literature that was written decades after the alleged events. The New Testament does not form part of Islamic literature so I am not sure why you'd expect Muslims to see Jesus in the same light as Christians do or to subscribe to the Christian folklore about him.
Oh, and they don't believe Jesus actually died on the cross because the cross puts a kink in their theology. After all, why would God allow it?
26 Mar 14
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFSpecifically they don't think that Jesus was the Messiah who is the only begotten Son of God.
You got any links to real Islamic web sites, as opposed to evangelical Christian sites?
I've lived in a Muslim country for many years and have never once heard it claimed that the early Christians were not trying to establish their religion based on the figure of Christ.
What they believe is that the Jewish religion had become corrupted and that God sent his prophet Jesus to "fix" it. However, all that happened in the coming of Jesus was the creation of Christianity that views Jesus as God in the flesh which they think is blasphemous. This is what they claim the 12 disciples did not teach or believe. No doubt, they probably think that those who spread such lies were worthy of the cross.
What I don't understand is that if God exists, why would he send a prophet to make things worse? It would be the first Biblical example where a prophet was sent to "save" his people, but ended up instead damning over half the world to hell.
Originally posted by FMFI don't really respect the Quran because it claims that the Bible cannot be trusted because it is corrupt. Instead, they write their own Bible to "fix" the original Bible. This is a very odd thing to do when your entire religion is based upon the God of the Bible. You may have interpretation issues but I guess when there is no way to reinterpret what you believe it should say you simply say it is falsely written and then rewrite it yourself.
Well it's only recorded in Christian literature that was written decades after the alleged events. The New Testament does not form part of Islamic literature so I am not sure why you'd expect Muslims to see Jesus in the same light as Christians do or to subscribe to the Christian folklore about him.
Christians did not do this. In fact, the gospels make it clear that Jesus is completing scripture, not rewriting it.