Don't be too hard on yourself

Originally posted by divegeester to Rajk999
Rajk999 will not do this becused he has nothing to give, no hope, no experiences about how his teaching here is applied in his life, how it works, his failures. He cannot, because he doesn't speak the gospel he speaks part of it. One part only, one axe that he grinds.

You perhaps need to make a case that the "one part only", that you say Rajk999 overly emphasizes, is not, in fact, the most important teaching the Bible has about living a Christian life, rather than for you to speak of your preference for an interpretation that allows you to declare that you are "saved" even though you acknowledge that you "live a desert life [... and...] feed on the carcasses, the decaying carrion of the bygone dispensations of grace".

Originally posted by divegeester
You seem to intent on polarising your perspective of the Christian content of this forum between sonship and Rakj999. I don't see it like this, why do you?

The perspectives they present are undeniably polarized, so what is one to do?

Originally posted by FMF
You perhaps need to make a case that the "one part only", that you say Rajk999 overly emphasizes, is not, in fact, the most important teaching the Bible has about living a Christian life, rather than for you to speak of your preference for an interpretation that allows you to declare that you are "saved" even though you acknowledge that you "live a desert life [... and...] feed on the carcasses, the decaying carrion of the bygone dispensations of grace".

I have done that many times over the years I've been here. I don't feel the need to replay the scenarios everytime he posts.

Originally posted by FMF
The perspectives they present are undeniably polarized, so what is one to do?

I agree that they hold differing opinions, I just wondered why it seems that for you my argument with Rakj999 should be played out as sonship vs Rajk999. Perhaps I'm misreading you.

Originally posted by FMF
So, perhaps this is why Rajk999's more demanding interpretation of what the Bible teaches is less appealing to you than, say, sonships'?

Considering what I've posted about Rajk999 in this thread and the hundreds of conversations we have had over sonship and these topics and the thousands and thousands of posts I've made attacking sonship's errors and horrible teachings, think this comment is a little low by you actually. I'm certain you can't as you say, "present a case" to support it?

Originally posted by divegeester
I agree that they hold differing opinions, I just wondered why it seems that for you my argument with Rakj999 should be played out as sonship vs Rajk999. Perhaps I'm misreading you.

sonship's ideology ~ his torturer god ideas and self-enraptured spam-bombing verbosity aside ~ suits the reality (about yourself) that you describe. Rajk999's ideology is less accommodating/convenient ~ sonship offers the 'done deal/saved/no matter what' interpretation. The way I see it, the thinking v doing dichotomy is a fundamental dispute about what "a Christian life" actually means, and this dichotomy plays itself out most clearly in the dialogues between sonship and Rajk999.

Originally posted by divegeester
Considering what I've posted about Rajk999 in this thread and the hundreds of conversations we have had over sonship and these topics and the thousands and thousands of posts I've made attacking sonship's errors and horrible teachings, think this comment is a little low by you actually. I'm certain you can't as you say, "present a case" to support it?

...the thousands and thousands of posts I've made attacking sonship's errors and horrible teachings

Like me, you have nothing to fear from sonship's torturer god philosophy. But we have different reasons. In my case because it is just nonsense that doesn't make any moral sense ~ it just isn't real to me. In your case you have nothing to fear from it because [1] you think it is an error and [2] you believe you are "saved", you can't/won't be tortured anyway (if it were to be true, for instance) and sonship's OSAS theology offers you this. Your principled confronting sonship on his ghastly notions notwithstanding, at the very core of his 'teaching' is the 'We are but dirty rags but it's OK, just have faith' thing that appeals to you.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]...the thousands and thousands of posts I've made attacking sonship's errors and horrible teachings

Like me, you have nothing to fear from sonship's torturer god philosophy. But we have different reasons. In my case because it is just nonsense that doesn't make any moral sense ~ it just isn't real to me. In your case you have nothing to fear from it b ...[text shortened]... teaching' is the 'We are but dirty rags but it's OK, just have faith' thing that appeals to you.[/b]

I don't have a doctrine on as such, I try to include all the gospel and Acts and Letters into my thinking. I do believe in eternal security but I also acknowledge certain scriptues indicating that a person could lose their salvation. These are few and involve very extreme situations, some don't even involve losing salvation but losing physical life; Ananias and Saphira for example. I don't have a robust explaination of how this apparent contradiction precipitates into teaching or the everyday life. I also acknowledge that faith without works (actions of repentance and obedience, not necessaraily good deeds) is dead.

That sonship holds a similar POV to me on part of this, if he indeed does, is irrelevant to what Rajk999 believes or claims to believe. Many Christians here hold to OSAS and I don't think the generalised juxtaposition of posters themselves...sonship, with his vain misanthropic witterings with Rajk999's taught but billboarded sort of 'articles of faith' is necessarily a fair contrast, if that is what you were doing. However I accept that they do hold opposing views on the access to and security of salvation and that they are the two posters who argue about it the most.

As I've said in this thread several times, I did find some appeal in what Rajk999 posts as it does genuinely challenge me, but I question his honesty in terms of him claiming to be a Christian. I take nothing from sonship's sincerity as a Christian because what he preaches is by and large a complete anathema to me.

It is an interesting sub topic to this thread; the dynamic of sincerity of belief vs moral coherence. A good discussion. 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
sonship's ideology ~ his torturer god ideas and self-enraptured spam-bombing verbosity aside ~ suits the reality (about yourself) that you describe. Rajk999's ideology is less accommodating/convenient ~ sonship offers the 'done deal/saved/no matter what' interpretation. The way I see it, the thinking v doing dichotomy is a fundamental dispute about what "a Chris ...[text shortened]... , and this dichotomy plays itself out most clearly in the dialogues between sonship and Rajk999.

Faith without works is dead - true

It is by grace we are saved not of ourselves - true

Salvation is spiritual rebirth - true

There is provision for forgiveness for future sin - true

We are forgive one another's transgressions - true

Clearly there is room both ideas in scripture.

Originally posted by divegeester
The scriptural pieces that Rajk presents are of way more interest and appeal to me than what sonship writes about. I don't read most of sonship's posts, I find his ministry dull, largely incomprehensible, sometimes morally ridiculous and generally way off track; and as you know I've called him on it hundreds of times. In fact I'm still awaiting a respon ...[text shortened]... ristian content of this forum between sonship and Rakj999. I don't see it like this, why do you?

Went to bed at 11pm, got up at 6am and I missed all this? Dont know where to start.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Went to bed at 11pm, got up at 6am and I missed all this? Dont know where to start.

Start with this; I think you are a good guy.

Originally posted by sonship
Victory is there for you. But not before you learn to be joined to others in and around and by Jesus Christ alone.

But aren't all the Christians on this forum already joined to others, locally, wherever they are?

Originally posted by sonship
What a Friend we have in Jesus.

Truth.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] [b]That is not an answer.
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Scrutinize it man !

Once again: Is it impossible to please your god figure without works?
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Get the weakness. Get the illogical.
Scrutinize that Gospel !

Surely y ...[text shortened]... ]
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More questions.
Line them up.
More scrutinizing ![/b]

Faith without works is dead?

Originally posted by divegeester
Start with this; I think you are a good guy.

Thanks, you as well. 🙂.