Genesis 1:1-2

Originally posted by sonship

so is genesis a metaphor or it actually happened how is described?

False dichotomy.

" It is EITHER metaphor OR History ".

False dichotomy.

did you just logic nazi me? are you claiming the genesis story is both a metaphor and a real event?

as in god is a hipster art major that created the universe in a certain specific way to make a metaphoric statement about something?

Originally posted by sonship
So [b]everything became not very good only after the curse was uttered by God in Genesis 3:17 ?

"Cursed is the ground the ground because of you ..." (3:17) .

So only AFTER that moment everything that God had made was no longer "very good" (2:31) ?

Now I am not trying to corner you for embarrassment ...[text shortened]... ixth day only became not "very good" after God uttered the curse in Genesis 3:17 ?[/b]

I think it had to have been before God uttered His curse for two reasons.
First reason is Adam and Eve sinned before God cursed the earth, second
being the devil was lying before Adam and Eve sinned. The very good part
had to have gone away when Satan went postal.

Originally posted by sonship

so you make everything in the old testament appear as a symbol of something jesus did.

Many things are. Many things point to Christ and the church.
Christ is really the kernel, the center of the whole Bible.

Christ, Christ, Christ. He's the center of the whole Bible.
Learn that and learn it well.

[quote]
slapping lamb bl ...[text shortened]... n to, hanging after .. to Jesus when there is no more opportunity for you to believe INTO Jesus.

"christ is really the kernel, the center of the whole Bible."
only the new testament. with some hints that he is coming in the old. so he is not even the center of a half of the bible.

no matter how much you wish it to, the old testament was a mess of contradictory horribleness, definetely written without christ in mind. proven by the fact that christ made it a point to dismiss most of the crap done in god's name that is in the old testament. it is ironic then that a lot of crap was done in Christ's name again which really proves humans have no problem blaming god for their heinous acts.


" The dry land coming up on THE THIRD DAY is a heavy hint of Christ's resurrection."
the dry land coming up on the third day is a heavy hint at how the person writing this had no fukin clue about geology.
no, wait, i have another one: the dry land coming up on the third day is a heavy hint at how on WEDNESDAY (THE THIRD DAY) thoughts of the joys of weekend RISE UP from the WATERY DEPTH of the mondays. it is incredible how the bible predicted the tedious pursuit for the weekends of the 21st century corporate drone. SENSATIONAL!



you can find patterns in just about everything. you can assign meaning to every boring little thing. that is how superstitions are born.
people spill some salt because they are drunk, later they fall down the stairs because they are drunk and they yell bad luck for spilling the salt.


absolutely everything that is written in the bible can be considered a metaphor by something that happened later in history even till our present.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

only the new testament. with some hints that he is coming in the old. so he is not even the center of a half of the bible.

No, He's the center of the whole Bible.

What does Luke 24:25-27 say ?

After His resurrection, to the despondent disciples who thought He was dead and gone -

"And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (vs. 27)

All the prophets spoke of Christ, according TO Christ.
You need to have your eyes enlightened to see this more and more.

The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms were concerning Christ. He was central to the Old Testament.

Again after His resurrection He opened their eyes to this.

Luke 24:44

New American Standard Bible
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."

King James Bible
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

absolutely everything that is written in the bible can be considered a metaphor by something that happened later in history even till our present.

Two extremes - one to deny Christ is not in very many places in OT.
The other extreme is to dismiss Christs significance because, well, you can make anything out of anything by imagination.

I think I strike the proper balance. And Christ is certainly the center of the Bible.

Originally posted by sonship
Yet this is somewhat aside from my question about exactly WHEN did the [b]"very good" world become no longer "very good". Your reply was general - when man sinned and God cursed the ground.

If an enemy of God, a slanderer, a liar, a twister of God's words, a subtle tempter, a sinner, a rival to God, adversary to God, lurking, waiting for th ...[text shortened]... tation would you like to stand with ? Why don't you answer before I tell you how I would answer.[/b]

Eve seemed very comfortable with the serpent creature in the garden. That was because it was very good until Lucifer {Satan} possessed it in order to tempt Eve.

Originally posted by sonship
I read this in Donald Whitcomb's YEC book [b]"The Early Earth". That was as detailed an argument for that interpretation that I know. He spent a lot of time to present his case with a Dallas Theological Seminary Old Testament expert.

Duane Gish and Donald Whitcomb are good brothers. But I don't follow them on this view of Genesis which you now repeat ...[text shortened]... an weaken the Gospel of Christ as you say, our view actually strengthens the view of the Gospel.[/b]

It is the spiritual world that is not fully revealed in Genesis 1, for the purpose of Genesis 1 was to reveal the physical world's beginning.

Originally posted by RJHinds

It is the spiritual world that is not fully revealed in Genesis 1, for the purpose of Genesis 1 was to reveal the physical world's beginning.

By far the physical world is not completely and exhaustively revealed.

How much Christ you live will influence how much Christ you see in the pages of the Bible. The Apostle Paul certainly proved this.

Romans 15:4

King James Bible
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For whatever was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that we may have hope through endurance and through the encouragement from the Scriptures.

I did not see all these matters on my own.
But I opened up my heart to the wisdom of some much more experienced servants of of God in the living of the Christian life who teach faithfully the church.

But if you do not see much of Christ in the first chapters of Genesis, it is ok. What you do see is still profitable.

Originally posted by sonship

It is the spiritual world that is not fully revealed in Genesis 1, for the purpose of Genesis 1 was to reveal the physical world's beginning.

By far the physical world is not completely and exhaustively revealed.

How much Christ you live will influence how much Christ you see in the pages of the Bible. The Apostle Paul certainly pr ...[text shortened]... much of Christ in the first chapters of Genesis, it is ok. What you do see is still profitable.

The point I was making is that the beginning of the physical world was revealed. There was no other physical world before the one we have now.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The point I was making is that the beginning of the physical world was revealed. There was no other physical world before the one we have now.

KellyJay made a answer to my question about Genesis 1:31. You avoided giving any answer.

There was no physical world before "the beginning" when God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) We don't know when that was other than that it was "in the beginning".

There was a physical world that became waste and void in verse 2.
And we do not know how long elapsed between verse 1 and verse 2.

During that intervening time the events of Ezekiel 28:12-18 we believe occurred when unrighteousness which is sin was found in the Anointed Cherub that covers (Exekiel 28:25)

"You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrightgeousness was found in you."

If you say that this unrighteoousness, this sin, was found in Satan in a "day" between Genesis 1:5 - "one day" and some "day" before Eve's temptation you have God using the physical world as a trash can to dispose of the refuse found in Heaven.

That does not make good sense. Then God has to discard of a malignant diseased unrighteous sinning angel, looks around for a trash can, and decides to throw him into the brand new Paradise because that is the only place for him to land.

That does not make good sense. It makes better sense that he was left over from a previous Eden (Ezek. 28:13)and a previous kingdom. That kingdom, along with realms under his jurisdiction became "waste and void". He and his hordes were deprived, jobless, sullen, dethroned and unable to create anything. And that could have been for millions of years.

The end of the six days had a new creation - Adam as the new authority. A dusty made human being in God's image ordained with God's dominion and told to guard the paradise garden of Eden. That situation was made by god and was "very good".

It was "very good" until through one man sin entered into that world and death through sin.

Satan was in the garden and sinned before sin entered into the world as Romans 5:12 says.

"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death ..." does not insist that Satan could not sin at any time prior to and up to the moment Adam failed to guard his heart really, from sinning by disobedience to God.

If the scientists say "We need a million years" or "We need 600 million years" or "We need 15 billion years" the Christian is not bound to say "Then the Bible is wrong."

We are not told how old the universe is. But its birth day was "In the beginning."

Neither do we have to go back and commit every Christian to fighting for the fact that the earth DOES NOT MOVE for fear that Copernicus has proved the Bible to be wrong.

Satan's rebellion brought in God's judgment. God cannot tolerate any rebellion among His creatures. Immediately after Satan's rebellion, God declared His judgment on him. "Iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy slander [G. H. Pember says that according to the root of the Hebrew word, here 'merchandise' can be translated 'slander.']...thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up...thou hast corrupted thy wisdom... I will cast thee to the ground.... Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities..." (Ezek. 28:15-18). "Thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isa. 14:15).

From The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee,
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p

Cont. from The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee

b) The Heavens and the Earth Were Judged

The heavens and the earth surely were defiled by Satan's rebellion. God rebuked Satan, "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries" (Ezek. 28:18). So, the heavens and the earth were also judged by God. Job 9:5-7 says that God overturned the mountains in His anger, shook the earth out of its place, commanded the sun not to rise, and sealed the stars. When did God do this? We cannot find a record of such an event in human history. It must have happened before the Adamic world, at the time God judged the heavens and the earth due to the rebellion of Satan and his followers. Because of God's judgment, the heavens did not shine. The earth was covered by darkness. The fact that the earth, after being judged by God, was buried under the deep water proves that God must have judged the earth by flooding it with water. So, "the earth became waste and empty," buried under deep water, and covered with darkness (Gen. 1:2).

Isaiah 45:18 tells us, "God created the earth not a waste" (Heb.). Job 38:4-7 shows that God created the earth in good order. It says that when God "laid the foundations of the earth," "laid the measures thereof," and "stretched the line upon it," "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God [the angels] shouted for joy." When God laid the foundations of the earth, He laid the measure upon it and stretched the line upon it. This means that He created it in good order. So, when the morning stars saw it, they were excited and sang, and when all the angels saw it, they shouted for joy. When did this happen? It must have happened in Genesis 1:1, not in Genesis 1:2. How could the morning stars sing and the angels shout for joy when the earth became waste and empty?

Job lived before Moses. And it could be that Moses didn't write about this because Job (written by whoever before the writing of Genesis) already spoke to the matter.

The earliest biblical writing about creation is therefore not in Genesis but in Job chronologically. However, in the order of the Hebrew canon, Genesis comes first in order, as well it should.

Originally posted by sonship
KellyJay made a answer to my question about [b]Genesis 1:31. You avoided giving any answer.

There was no physical world before "the beginning" when God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) We don't know when that was other than that it was "in the beginning".

There was a physical world that became waste and vo ...[text shortened]... rom The Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee,
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p[/b]

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

(Genesis 1:1-5 NASB)

We know that from Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:5 there was a one day period consisting of an evening and a morning, so the time from the beginning until the earth was formless, void, and dark under the cover of water was probably less than 12 hours of that day.

Lucifer, the Anointed Cherub, was part of the spiritual creation in the spiritual heaven. The iniquity that was found in Him probably refers to when he sinned by tempting Eve to disobey God. We are not told when he was created, but I would guess it was before the creation of the physical world because we are told that the angels witnessed the creation of the earth.

Originally posted by RJHinds
[quote] 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God ...[text shortened]... n of the physical world because we are told that the angels witnessed the creation of the earth.

I'm asking because nothing comes to mind on the angels witnessed the
creation of the earth, typically I know what scripture people are referring
too, but this one I need help with. Can you refresh my memory?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm asking because nothing comes to mind on the angels witnessed the
creation of the earth, typically I know what scripture people are referring
too, but this one I need help with. Can you refresh my memory?

This what you are referring to?

“Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7).

Originally posted by RJHinds

We know that from Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:5 there was a one day period consisting of an evening and a morning, so the time from the beginning until the earth was formless, void, and dark under the cover of water was probably less than 12 hours of that day.

Exodus 20:11 , because it uses asah - "MADE" does [NOT] [edited] force us to have to assume that.

And Genesis 1:5 does not say "the FIRST day". It says "one day".

When you get to verse 8, the Hebrews uses another expression - "a second day", and so on through the rest of the account.

Furthermore, on the fourth day it does not say God CREATED the light-bearers of the sun, moon and stars. It says "asah" - He MADE them.

"And God said, Let there be light-bearers in the expanse of heaven ... And God MADE the two great light-bearers, the greater light-bearer to rule the day and the lesser light-bearer to rile the night, and the stars." (see 1:14-19)

The word used for the sun, moon, and stars which is not the same word as is used for light in verse 2 "Let there be light" (v.3)

From the seer's viewpoint the diffuse light which was pervasive was not clear enough to be definitely discerned as to its source. On the fourth day the light was seen to be coming from concrete sources - He MADE the sun, moon and stars.

I believe the earth was rotating and the diffuse sunlight could not be detected as coming from a definite light-bearer or light-holder until the fourth day when it says God MADE the light-bearers.

When people scoff and say "How could there be an evening and a morning before a rotating earth in sunlight?" We do not have to concoct that God was shining and darkening either Himself or some other vague light.

Asah can also be translated "appoint". So on the fourth day we could understand not that God CREATED the sun but MADE or appointed the sun as it was first seen by the seer in a distinct way, as a "light-holder".

Nothing in the account insists that there could be no preadamic physical universe.

Furthermore I don't it is a good view to think the iniquity found in the Anointed Cherub only occurred for the FIRST time when the serpent spoke a lie to Eve. Ezekiel's and Isaiah's description of a being in Eden and/or opposing God is far far different from the subtle creeping serpent described in Genesis 3. In fact it must be some OTHER Eden. God certainly could have an Eden prior in another age.

There is no glorious and splendid high priestly dignitary in Genesis 3 telling his FIRST lie. That is not a trustworthy a interpretation to me. And his talk suggests that he has already had a previous history and experience with opposing God, as if he knows the inside story from previous experience.

"And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God knowing good and evil." (v.4,5)

This is not spoken by the splendid, glorious, dignified, high priestly being walking amidst the stones of fire in Eden in Ezekiel 28. This is spoken by a subtle serpent. And I can't go along with this being his FIRST sin by any means.

Now let me say a word about your soft tissue in dinosaurs. I already conceded that I am not positively sure where these animals should be placed. The soft tissue may only prove that it was not as long ago as some think. Maybe this prehistoric time was not as long ago as some think.

That is a different matter from a preadamic age.

Lucifer, the Anointed Cherub, was part of the spiritual creation in the spiritual heaven.

This is making the Eden garden of Adam God's handy trash can to dispose of garbage found in heaven. You are implying that God looked around for some place to toss this garbage and chose the new Edenic paradise He made for Adam as a waste basket.

I don't buy that RJ.
You go ahead and believe that if you want to.

The iniquity that was found in Him probably refers to when he sinned by tempting Eve to disobey God. We are not told when he was created, but I would guess it was before the creation of the physical world because we are told that the angels witnessed the creation of the earth.

The Anointed Cherub massed his armies of deceived angels and other creatures who became disembodied demons desperately searching for other physical bodies long before the conversation with Eve.

You're saying that Eve was the first creature Satan deceived.
I don't believe that.