Islamic text

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes, its entirely true, if your religious conviction has no efficacy to produce good in you and to make you more empathetic to the plight of others then what is the point, you would be as well joining a gold club, a tennis club or a chess club.

Yes Robbie. That is what I meant. I was not meaning
to literally discuss "the point of religion".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Not only is it true its demonstrably true. Where do you think the new age movement takes its values from? You have rather unwittingly proved the validity of my statement.

I don't see how.
In the past 2,000 years the Roman pantheon has disappeared,
the Norse gods have gone (you cannot even say "values" from
those religions live on.) The Catholic Church has morphed and
morphed through the centuries. New religions; Mormonism, JWs,
Scientology rise up (do you think they all have the same values?)

Originally posted by wolfgang59
This is manifestly not true.
Religions often die with societies.
Others change beyond recognition.
New ones appear.

The only thing that I would add is that often religions are adapted as robbie carrobie inferred with the question, "Where do you think the new age movement takes its values from?" Below is a list of "Forgotten Ancient Religions."

Finnish Paganism
Canaanite Religion
Atenism
Minoan Religion
Mithrasim
Manichaeism
Tengrism
Ashurism
Vedism
Olmec Religion
http://listverse.com/2013/10/04/10-forgotten-ancient-religions/

Rather than calling these religions (or any other "forgotten" religions) dead, I think this is a list of "inactive" religions. I think the philosophical aspects of religion don't die, but rather, wax and wane. When an individual or a group re-discovers an inactive religion, and adopts the application of that religion, it is no longer dead and may appear as adapted or changed...perhaps even beyond recognition.

When I was a Mormon, I practiced a religion which I was told was a restored gospel. As a Universal Sufi, I often rely on the principles posited in other religions. Often, I adapt those principles beyond recognition--an example being my observance of Ramadan without fasting.

Some would state that my current practices are not a religion at all, but the manifestations of my own personal spirituality. I would agree with them...

Imagine...

On September 25, 2002, a group of armed Islamists in Karachi, Pakistan entered the office of a Christian charity, tied seven workers to chairs and then brutally murdered them.

The killing of non-Muslim humanitarian workers by devout followers of Islam occurs quite often. While there is rarely any celebration on the part of other Muslims, neither is there much outrage expressed by a community renowned for its peevishness.

While rumors of a Quran desecration or a Muhammad cartoon bring out deadly protests, riots, arson and effigy-burnings, the mass murder of non-Muslims generally evokes yawns.

But beneath the rosy assurances from Muslim apologists that Islam is about peace and tolerance lies a much darker reality that better explains the violence and deeply-rooted indifference. Quite simply, the Quran teaches supremacy, hatred and hostility.

Far from teaching universal love, the Quran incessantly preaches the inferiority of non-Muslims, even comparing them to vile animals and gloating over Allah's hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture. Naturally, the harsh treatment of non-believers by Muslims is encouraged as well.

The apologists are correct in saying that Islam teaches love and kindness, but they fail to add that this applies only to the treatment of those within the Muslim community.

If this is a "misunderstanding" of Islam by modern-day "radicals," then it is an error that the founder of Islam made as well. In Muhammad's time, non-Muslims were put to death merely for speaking out against the new religion and its self-proclaimed prophet.

In his later years, Muhammad directed military campaigns to subjugate other tribes and religions, "inviting" them to Islam at the point of a sword and forcing them to pay tribute regardless. He set in motion the aggressive military campaigns that made war against all five major world religions in just the first few decades following his death.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/Quran-Hate.htm

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I don't see how.
In the past 2,000 years the Roman pantheon has disappeared,
the Norse gods have gone (you cannot even say "values" from
those religions live on.) The Catholic Church has morphed and
morphed through the centuries. New religions; Mormonism, JWs,
Scientology rise up (do you think they all have the same values?)

On the contrary, did you not watch Iron man? if my memory serves me correctly there was a depiction of Thor and Loki? and video games are rife with gladiatorial fights. These 'values' are very much alive and their principles remain in one guise or another.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
On the contrary, did you not watch Iron man? if my memory serves me correctly there was a depiction of Thor and Loki? and video games are rife with gladiatorial fights. These 'values' are very much alive and their principles remain in one guise or another.

T -- H -- E .....................T -- R -- U -- T -- H

😛

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
On the contrary, did you not watch Iron man? if my memory serves me correctly there was a depiction of Thor and Loki?

I have to point out that this got to the movie via comic books written by someone who quite possibly hadn't studied a whole lot of Norse mythology. It is likely that not many of the original 'values' remain.
I must also add that Thursday comes from Thor too.

Originally posted by hakima
The only thing that I would add is that often religions are adapted as robbie carrobie inferred with the question, "Where do you think the new age movement takes its values from?" Below is a list of "Forgotten Ancient Religions."

Finnish Paganism
Canaanite Religion
Atenism
Minoan Religion
Mithrasim
Manichaeism
Tengrism
Ashurism
Vedism
Olmec Religi ...[text shortened]... but the manifestations of my own personal spirituality. I would agree with them...

Imagine...

As a Universal Sufi . . .

“The true way of progressing through music is to evolve freely, to go forward, not caring what others think, and in this way, together with one’s development in music, to harmonize the life of one’s soul, one’s surroundings and one’s affairs…

“If this principle of music were followed, there would be no need for an external religion. Some day music will be the means of expressing universal religion. Time is wanted for this, but there will come a day when music and its philosophy will become the religion of humanity.”

—Hazrat Inayat Khan

[Note: Inayat Khan here means music - not lyrics (poetry).]

Originally posted by RJHinds
On September 25, 2002, a group of armed Islamists in Karachi, Pakistan entered the office of a Christian charity, tied seven workers to chairs and then brutally murdered them.

The killing of non-Muslim humanitarian workers by devout followers of Islam occurs quite often. While there is rarely any celebration on the part of other Muslims, neither is there ...[text shortened]... first few decades following his death.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/Quran-Hate.htm

Do you realise that everything that you say about Muslim atrocities (which you do with monotonous regularity) can be said about the Christian Church through the ages?

E.g.:
- the Crusades
- the 30 years war between Protestants and Catholics
- the "Troubles" in Ireland

And the last two were WITHIN the Christian community! And one would be hard pressed to find another religion where LOVE is the overt and central principle....

Watch out whom the pot calls black....

😠

Originally posted by hakima

When I was a Mormon, I practiced a religion which I was told was a restored gospel. As a Universal Sufi, I often rely on the principles posited in other religions.

Some would state that my current practices are not a religion at all, but the manifestations of my own personal spirituality. I would agree with them...

I would really like to know more about what you mean by "Universal Sufi", either here or in a PM.

You seem to have risen above sectarianism, which is a very rare feat.

Originally posted by CalJust
I would really like to know more about what you mean by "Universal Sufi", either here or in a PM.

You seem to have risen above sectarianism, which is a very rare feat.

Our colleague, vistesd quoted Hazrat* Inayat Khan, through whose lineage I took my Sufi initiation. Pir o Murshid** taught the value and importance of the many religions of the world as contributors to the One Religion whereby men and women might find common ground and rise above the differences which divided them. He admonished his followers to hold to the principles in their religions of origin which magnified and engendered that vision of unity.

Although I have left the Mormon church (my religion of origin), I hold to many of that religion's teachings. Additionally, I embrace truth in various religious teachings as it speaks to my own experiences in life while honoring truth as it speaks to others' unique and perhaps even differing experiences. Hazrat Inayat Khan recognized the variety of cultures in the world and emphasized the cultural influence of religions. As a young musician in India in the early part of the 20th century, Khan recognized the unifying effect that the arts, and especially music had on the diversity he saw in the world as he ventured at his teacher's instruction to take the message of God to the West--that message being the One message of Unifying Love.

Pir o Murshid taught that by honoring the various religions through worship and practice, individuals might be able to rise above divisive sectarianism.

There is much to read through the poetic verses of Rumi, Hafiz, Attar, Rabia, and Khabir, to name a few older Sufis.

Hazrat Inayat Khan's writings can be found through my fellow Sufi, Wahiduddin Richard Shelquist's web site: http://wahiduddin.net/

and much of Hazrat Sufi Ahmed Murad (aka Murshid Samuel Lewis)'s works can be found online (http://www.ruhaniat.org/) and through the Dances of Universal Peace (http://www.dancesofuniversalpeace.org/)

*Hazrat is an honorific title which indicates the respect of the speaker toward a beloved teacher or leader of a particular Sufi order who has passed through mortality to immortality.

**Pir o Murshid is the title given to a leader of a Sufi order

Originally posted by CalJust
Do you realise that everything that you say about Muslim atrocities (which you do with monotonous regularity) can be said about the Christian Church through the ages?

E.g.:
- the Crusades
- the 30 years war between Protestants and Catholics
- the "Troubles" in Ireland

And the last two were WITHIN the Christian community! And one would be hard pres ...[text shortened]... here LOVE is the overt and central principle....

Watch out whom the pot calls black....

😠

No I don't realize it.

The Quran teaches supremacy, hatred and hostility.

Far from teaching universal love, the Quran incessantly preaches the inferiority of non-Muslims, even comparing them to vile animals and gloating over Allah's hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture. Naturally, the harsh treatment of non-believers by Muslims is encouraged as well.

The apologists are correct in saying that Islam teaches love and kindness, but they fail to add that this applies only to the treatment of those within the Muslim community.

Originally posted by RJHinds
No I don't realize it.

You have chosen to totally disregard my question, and just to repeat your anti-Islam rhetoric.

Do you or do you not agree that the history of the ancient and modern Christian Church is filled with atrocities of Christians against other Christians, and Christians against unbelievers?

Originally posted by CalJust
Do you realise that everything that you say about Muslim atrocities (which you do with monotonous regularity) can be said about the Christian Church through the ages?

E.g.:
- the Crusades
- the 30 years war between Protestants and Catholics
- the "Troubles" in Ireland

And the last two were WITHIN the Christian community! And one would be hard pres ...[text shortened]... here LOVE is the overt and central principle....

Watch out whom the pot calls black....

😠

I agree with your basic point but The Troubles wasn't about religion. Many Christics, to use vistesd's term from another thread, seem very willing to drop the Second Commandment.

Originally posted by CalJust
You have chosen to totally disregard my question, and just to repeat your anti-Islam rhetoric.

Do you or do you not agree that the history of the ancient and modern Christian Church is filled with atrocities of Christians against other Christians, and Christians against unbelievers?

I have heard rumors that there may have been a few in the past, but I was not there.