13 May '16 11:02>
Originally posted by checkbaiterWell said.
My contention with the Trinity is I do not believe it exists and I believe it robs God (Yahweh) of His rightful place as the only true God who is one.
Originally posted by divegeester
Who of your trinity is the "Alpha and the Omega"?
The first and the last...
" Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him, Yes amen.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 7,8)
"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look upon Me, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son and cry bitterly over Him with bitter crying as for a firstborn son." (Zech. 12:10)
" And in that day I [Jehovah God] (v.8) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
... and they [the repenting Jews of the land] will look upon ME, whom they have pierced; and they will wail over Him with wailing as for an only son ..."
"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM; (See Zech. 12:10) ... and all the tribes of the land [the Holy Land around Jerusalem] will mourn over Him, Yes, amen.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God,
He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8)
"Behold I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End ... I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright morning star." (See Rev. 22:13,16)
Zechariah 12:10 (NIV)
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
First of all, there are problems with the transmission of the Hebrew text such that the original meaning is not clear. Thus there are versions such as the NIV above that make the sentence refer back to God and these versions usually supply the word “me” or some equivalent. On the other hand, there are other translators that see the “one whom they have pierced” as referring to someone other than God, and those versions usually supply the word “him.” An example of this is the Revised Standard Version.
Zechariah 12:10 (RSV)
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.
Translators and commentators who believe that the word “pierced” should refer back to the pronoun “him” cite textual variants that more clearly read “him,” as well as the flow of the sentence which continues with the word “him” in the phrase “they shall mourn for him” and “grieve bitterly for him.” The Jewish understanding of this verse has always been that the one pierced was one in an intimate relationship with God, but there is no record of any early Jewish commentator understanding Zechariah 12:10 to be saying that somehow Yahweh Himself would come into the flesh and be pierced in the literal sense of the word. It is apparent to us that the Revised Standard Version has a good translation of the verse and that Zechariah 12:10 is a prophecy of the piercing of the promised Messiah.
Another important point to make is that Zechariah 12:10 is quoted in John 19:37 after the Roman soldier thrust his spear into Christ’s side. John 19:37 reads: “and, as another scripture says, ‘They will look on the one they have pierced.” The King James Version translates John 19:37 as follows: “And again another scripture saith, ‘They shall look on him whom they pierced.’”
The different versions may disagree on the Hebrew text of Zechariah 12:10, but none of them disagree on the translation of the way it is quoted in the New Testament. None of the versions have the word “me,” and most of them supply the word “him” as does the KJV, NASB and RSV. If the original reading of Zechariah 12:10 was “me, whom they have pierced,” we can think of no reason that it would not be quoted that way in the New Testament. On the other hand, if the reading of Zechariah 12:10 in the RSV and other versions is correct, then it makes perfect sense that the verse would be quoted in the New Testament the way it is. We contend that the New Testament quotation of Zechariah 12:10 gives us the proper interpretation of the verse.
Not only is Zechariah 12:10 quoted in John, but also it is alluded to in Revelation. Revelation 1:7 says, “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.” Commentators freely admit that this verse alludes back to Zechariah, and it uses the word “him,” not “me.” Thus we conclude that the internal evidence of Scripture is conclusive that the one pierced in Zechariah is not God but one in an intimate relation with God, the Messiah.
The third point I would make is that although we do not believe that “me” is properly supplied in many versions of Zechariah 12:10, it certainly is the case that God was “pierced” when the Messiah was tortured and put to death. When Simeon met Joseph and Mary in the Temple when they came to consecrate Jesus, he said to Mary, “A sword will pierce your own soul too” (Luke 2:35). Commentators freely admit that this statement is not referring to the physical piercing of Mary in any way, but rather is referring to the grief that Mary will endure as she watched her son be tortured and killed. Thus Scripture gives us evidence that, if Zechariah said, “they will look on [or “unto”] me who they have pierced,” then he was saying that God’s heart would be pierced. If “me” is the true reading in Zechariah 12:10, then the Bible tells us that both the hearts of God the Father of the Messiah and Mary the mother of the Messiah were pierced when Jesus their Son was tortured and killed.
Originally posted by sonshipI don't see how any of this refutes my position.Who of your trinity is the "Alpha and the Omega"?
The first and the last...
The Sweet One - Jesus, the embodiment of the Triune God.
Now look at the [b]Alpha and Omega passage as it first appears in Revelation.
" Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; a ...[text shortened]... bright morning star." (See Rev. 22:13,16)
I TOLD you He is sweet. I told you !![/b]
Originally posted by checkbaiterAre you still pretending you haven't read my previous posts in this thread on this topic?
[b]Zechariah 12:10
[quote]
Zechariah 12:10 (NIV)
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
First of ...[text shortened]... an.com/verses/zechariah-12-10
But hey, let's not let the bible get in the way of our beliefs.[/b]
Originally posted by divegeesterAre you still pretending you haven't read my previous posts in this thread on this topic?
Hear oh Israel (that's you sonship), the Lord your God is ONE
This appears many times in the Bible.
Hear of Israel the Lord you God is three appears ZERO times.
You're the preacher, work it out.😉[/b]
Originally posted by divegeester
Hear oh Israel (that's you sonship), the Lord your God is ONE
Originally posted by divegeester
You're the preacher, work it out.
Originally posted by sonshipI know you dont believe in Jesus Christ because you conveniently ignore what He said, but he said it as well:You're the preacher, work it out.
Oh, Wise guy huh?
Okay wise guy. Let me ask you one question for starters. Uh... does your Bible end with the book of [b]Deuteronomy ?
Take a look. Mine goes quite a bit more into God's progressive revelation from Joshua all the way through the New Testament and ending in Revelation.
Is Deuteronomy the last book in your Bible there .... wise guy?[/b]
Originally posted by sonship[b] Hear oh Israel (that's you sonship), the Lord your God is ONE
Originally posted by divegeesterI'm really not interested in your long-winded convoluted exegesis-like attempts to circumvent clear, unambiguous biblical text on the godhead. I've pointed out to what the Bible says repeatedly:
" If You are the Son of God, cast Yourself down; for it is written, To His angels He shall give charge concerning You, and on their hands they shall bear you up, lest You strike Your foot against a stone.' " (Matt. 3:6b)
"Jesus said to him, Again, it is written, You shall not test the Lord your God." (Matt. 3:7)
" But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law." (Gal. 4:5)
" From you [Bethlehem Ephrathah] shall come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel;
And His goings forth are from ancient times, From the days of eternity." (See Micah 5:2)
" ... and We [Father and Son] will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
" That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ..." (John 17:21)
" And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ... And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him ..." (See Genesis 1:26,27)
" ... Christ Jesus, Who existing in the form of God did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped." (Phil. 5b,6)
"And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself becoming obedient unto death, and that the death of a cross.
THEREFORE ... also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.
And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (vs. 8-11)
ISAIAH 45:23 - " I have sworned by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return,
That every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall swear. It shall be said of Me,
Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength."
Originally posted by divegeester
I don't see how any of this refutes my position.
So according to you, "The Father" is not the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega?
So according to you, "The Father" is not the first and the last the Alpha and the Omega?
" Behold He comes with the clouds ... I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7a,8)
" And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the clud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand ... And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (See Rev. 14:14-16)
" And the high priest said to Him, I charge You to swear by the living God to tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus said to him, You have said rightly. Nevertheless I say to you, From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:63b,64)