16 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFIf the ones you have surveyed have listened to the angel at Revelation 14:6,7, "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people." He was saying in a loud voice: "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water," they are on the right track.
My back-of-an-envelope survey of people I know, extrapolated to the world's entire population, indicates that the large majority of people ~ billions and billions ~ are already sure they "know who and what the true God is". What is it you "know" that they don't?
17 Oct 14
Originally posted by roigamThe Christians I know might well be into what Revelation says. For me, becoming aware of Revelation's lack of credibility was perhaps where the the beginning of the end began and led me into the reappraisal that caused me to ditch my Christian faith.
If the ones you have surveyed have listened to the angel at Revelation 14:6,7, "And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people." He was saying in a loud voice: "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, ...[text shortened]... ade the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water," they are on the right track.
17 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFRevelation takes intense study. When you see that God is fulfilling His word in our day, it builds faith in what is yet to come. We may not understand all the details of what it says. God reveals His word at the appropriate time. He lets us know what we need to know for salvation. Psalms 119:105 says, "Your word is a lamp to my foot. And a light for my path." and Proverbs 4:18 says, "But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light that grows brighter and brighter until full daylight."
The Christians I know might well be into what Revelation says. For me, becoming aware of Revelation's lack of credibility was perhaps where the the beginning of the end began and led me into the reappraisal that caused me to ditch my Christian faith.
Originally posted by roigamSo that intense study hasn't disclosed the fact that Revalations was a tract against the rule of the Romans? It was not an end of Earth story at all. If you study it from a historical perspective instead of a religious one you will discover that. Christians just took it at face value when it was in fact a political diatribe against Rome.
Revelation takes intense study. When you see that God is fulfilling His word in our day, it builds faith in what is yet to come. We may not understand all the details of what it says. God reveals His word at the appropriate time. He lets us know what we need to know for salvation. Psalms 119:105 says, "Your word is a lamp to my foot. And a light for my path." ...[text shortened]... ighteous is like the bright morning light that grows brighter and brighter until full daylight."
Read this link:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/31/four-big-myths-about-the-book-of-revelation/
17 Oct 14
Originally posted by roigamThis is neither here nor there to those who find Revelation not credible. You said, of the 7 billion people of the world, "We need to know who and what the true God is." Revelation is not going to achieve this, and if you think it can, then I don't think any ecumenical hopes you may have [assuming they are sincere and not merely partisan] are very realistic.
Revelation takes intense study. When you see that God is fulfilling His word in our day, it builds faith in what is yet to come. We may not understand all the details of what it says. God reveals His word at the appropriate time. He lets us know what we need to know for salvation.
18 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFProverbs 30:4 asks, Who has ascended to heaven and then descended?
This is neither here nor there to those who find Revelation not credible. You said, of the 7 billion people of the world, "We need to know who and what the true God is." Revelation is not going to achieve this, and if you think it can, then I don't think any ecumenical hopes you may have [assuming they are sincere and not merely partisan] are very realistic.
Who has gathered the wind in the palms of both hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name and the name of his son-if you know?
Revelation is the culmination of the events the true God foretold.
At Isaiah 46:10 it says, "From the beginning I foretell the outcome, and from long ago the things that have not yet been done."
18 Oct 14
Originally posted by roigamNo one is going to unite this world under one concept of "what the true God is" through the Book of Revelation. You must know this, so your "we" in the "We need to know who and what the true God is" is not about 'we, the world', it is just a partisan posture.
Proverbs 30:4 asks, Who has ascended to heaven and then descended?
Who has gathered the wind in the palms of both hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name and the name of his son-if you know?
Revelation is the culmination of the events the true God foretold.
At Isaiah 46:10 it ...[text shortened]... the beginning I foretell the outcome, and from long ago the things that have not yet been done."
18 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFI don't think anyone is trying to unite people through the Book of Revelation. It is a record of how what the True God has foretold is happening in our day.
No one is going to unite this world under one concept of "what the true God is" through the Book of Revelation. You must know this, so your "we" in the "We need to know who and what the true God is" is not about 'we, the world', it is just a partisan posture.
Jesus is the one that is working to reconcile all people to the True God.
That is why he preached about the good news of the Kingdom and sent out his disciples to continue and expand that preaching work until all nations will have heard.
18 Oct 14
Originally posted by roigamYes, all nations, but that does not mean every single person.
I don't think anyone is trying to unite people through the Book of Revelation. It is a record of how what the True God has foretold is happening in our day.
Jesus is the one that is working to reconcile all people to the True God.
That is why he preached about the good news of the Kingdom and sent out his disciples to continue and expand that preaching work until all nations will have heard.
Originally posted by roigamOK, I see. So you were being a little disingenuous when you said "We need to know who and what the true God is [...] We would benefit from knowing Him [...] If 7 billion people would learn that it could be a beautiful world" because you're just talking about people who happen to find Revelation credible, like yourself, and not about some sort of ecumenical approach to the "7 billion people" at all.
I don't think anyone is trying to unite people through the Book of Revelation.
20 Oct 14
Originally posted by RJHindsWhat do you mean by this? Some questions please:
Yes, [b]all nations, but that does not mean every single person.[/b]
How do you differentiate between "nations" and "individuals" in terms of the application of the gospel by the apostles?
Assuming you don't think Jesus command to his apostles to preach the gospel has yet been completed; how do you see this happening and by who?
20 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeesterRevelation 7:9,10 says, "After this I saw, and look, a great crowd, which no man could number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting in a loud voice, saying: "Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb.""
What do you mean by this? Some questions please:
How do you differentiate between "nations" and "individuals" in terms of the application of the gospel by the apostles?
Assuming you don't think Jesus command to his apostles to preach the gospel has yet been completed; how do you see this happening and by who?
Nations are made up of individual people.
(As a side point, v. 14 id s these as "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,.." so they obviously have not been "raptured".)
As to when the preaching work about God's Kingdom is done, it will be done to His satisfaction and then He will bring the end.
Revelation 7:2,3 says "..God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, "Do not harm the earth or the seas or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads."
21 Oct 14
Originally posted by sonhouseTwice you call this conjecture 'fact'. It seems pretty unlikely to me. John knew that his generation's difficulties with Rome were just dust in the wind compared with the very real conflict every man faces between eternal life and eternal death. We have yet to see the end game.
So that intense study hasn't disclosed the fact that Revalations was a tract against the rule of the Romans? It was not an end of Earth story at all. If you study it from a historical perspective instead of a religious one you will discover that. Christians just took it at face value when it was in fact a political diatribe against Rome.
Read this link:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/31/four-big-myths-about-the-book-of-revelation/
I guess you're just saying that John just lied about what was revealed to him. I'd hardly call that 'fact'.
21 Oct 14
Originally posted by roigam"Nations are made up of individual people"
Revelation 7:9,10 says, "After this I saw, and look, a great crowd, which no man could number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep shouting in a loud voice, saying: "Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on ...[text shortened]... or the seas or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads."
Exactly; but the post I was replying to by rjhinds (who ignored me) seems to think otherwise.