Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, my point is that statistics are one thing, but they cannot be used as a predictor.

Yes, actually, they can.

You cannot assume (in America anyway, on pain of a lawsuit) that any particular black guy is going to be less smart than any particular white guy.
Correct. But you can assume that he is more likely to have a criminal record. Statistics predicts likelihoods, not actual outcome for specific cases.
Of course I agree with you that you should not discriminate based on those likelihoods/predictions - yet people do so quite a lot.
In some cases it is standard practice. For example people get employed for their looks or their educational attainments even when they are not directly relevant to the job in question. Someone with a university degree may be more likely to be good at a given job than someone without a degree, but that isn't always the case, yet such discrimination is standard practice.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I disagree. I think this question was written to directly compare the intelligence of a typical Christian versus the intelligence of a typical atheist, and is therefore wrong. Nowhere did the question state "Statistically", "On average" or anything like that.

You don't seem to know what 'typical' means.

You cannot use statistics of an entire population as an excuse to discriminate against individuals.
Except this wasn't a case of choosing which students to hire for a job was it?

I believe the Supreme Court has already ruled on this, but I may be incorrect.
So try suing the university. I think you will find you are confused about what is going on.

The Third Reich tried this in times past, and clearly, it was wrong then, too.
I don't think the Third Reich was doing that at all. Are you saying that Jews were statistically inferior and most of them deserved death, but not all?

I expect that had it been racially motivated, the uproar would have been louder.
Yes, statistically you believe uproar is louder for race related questions than religion related questions. You have applied that statistic to this instance and concluded that in this case it must be so because the statistics suggest it should be. You are being discriminatory.

Originally posted by whodey
Of course, the damage is done so who cares if they get their hands slapped now.

.....

Instead of running from the truth, we should embrace it and find out why things are the way they are instead of continuing to run from the truth.

Make up your mind. First you say it doesn't matter after the fact, then you say we should do something about it. Which is it?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, I think we can comfortably say that one individual Christian is not any more likely to be less intelligent than any one individual atheist, based solely on their religious affiliation,

Yes we can. That is exactly what the statistic means.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes we can. That is exactly what the statistic means.

Drag in any one Christian off the street and then drag in any one atheist off the street. You can NOT predict which one is more intelligent, regardless of your own personal bias.

THIS is the basis of court decisions and laws saying it is illegal to discriminate based on a person's religion. You have NO clue which person is more intelligent. Exactly like you have NO clue which one is more intelligent based on their race, gender or their sexual orientation. To base your decision on these things is called discrimination, and yes, it has been decided, by law, to be wrong.

REGARDLESS what any statistics you may care to dig up, which may or may not be wrong, tell you. Any statistician will tell you this is because your sample size is WAY too small, and even then, you cannot tell who the smarter individual people are based solely on these characteristics. And if you did try, my guess is you would be wrong at least 50% of the time.

Judging individuals based on a statistic is fruitless. You have NO idea of their education level, or their IQ. And thus, your decision to choose one or the other based solely on these bogus criteria such as race, gender, religion or sexual orientation is inherently unfair, which is what discrimination is all about.

Originally posted by twhitehead

The Third Reich tried this in times past, and clearly, it was wrong then, too.

I don't think the Third Reich was doing that at all. Are you saying that Jews were statistically inferior and most of them deserved death, but not all?

No, I'm not saying that, the Nazis said that. Did you not read what I said? The Third Reich tried this in times past, and clearly, it was wrong then, too. What do you think their "Final Solution" was all about then, who baked the best strudel?

I thought we were having a constructive conversation here, not resorting to cheap insults.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Drag in any one Christian off the street and then drag in any one atheist off the street. You can NOT predict which one is more intelligent, regardless of your own personal bias.

We can however predict which is more likely to be more intelligent - which is what was in your original statement.

THIS is the basis of court decisions and laws saying it is illegal to discriminate based on a person's religion.
And I repeat, the legal requirements only apply to what actions you take, not what conclusions you choose to make about some likelihood. You cannot be sued for thinking someone is probably less intelligent because he is religious. I suspect that your free speech laws mean that I can even state openly who I think is probably less intelligent, or even lie about it.

You have NO clue which person is more intelligent.
I do have a clue. That is what statistics is about. It is not however a clue that proves the case, it only points in a direction.

To base your decision on these things is called discrimination, and yes, it has been decided, by law, to be wrong.
What decision? You seem quite confused about this.

Any statistician will tell you this is because your sample size is WAY too small,
You don't seem to understand what is going on at all. I think you will find that statisticians disagree with you.

and even then, you cannot tell who the smarter individual people are based solely on these characteristics.
And nobody has claimed that you can.

And if you did try, my guess is you would be wrong at least 50% of the time.
You clearly don't understand the first thing about statistics.

Judging individuals based on a statistic is fruitless.
Yet we do it all the time - usually to our benefit. If it was fruitless, we wouldn't do it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
No, I'm not saying that, the Nazis said that. Did you not read what I said?

Yes, I did read what you said. Did you?
You implied that the Nazis applied a known statistic to individual cases and thus they were being discriminatory. I am asking whether this means that they were right about the known statistic. Where was their fault?
You seem to be saying that although it is true that most Jews deserved to die, the Nazis were wrong because they incorrectly applied this to all Jews and claimed that all Jews deserved to die.
If this is not what you were saying then please clarify how your introduction of the Nazis to this thread is in any way relevant.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes, but OSU is a state institution and is thus regulated by laws meant to stop discrimination by gender, race, sexual orientation and religion. This question is not comparing Christians to atheists based on statistics, but based on intelligence. The IQ mentioned in the quiz question is meant as an indicator of intelligence, there are no statistics ...[text shortened]... or at least a higher-ranking educator in the Psychology department before going out on the test.

Besides all that, the methodology used is probably suspect from the beginning because it probably uses a small data set, a small number of test subjects and such, a lot can be inferred from a small data set that is totally bogus.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Besides all that, the methodology used is probably suspect from the beginning because it probably uses a small data set, a small number of test subjects and such, a lot can be inferred from a small data set that is totally bogus.

There's an interesting diagram on the "Religiosity and intelligence" page on Wikipedia. The statistic is the percentage who are college graduates. There's plenty of socio-economic stuff going on, but atheists are only just better than average on this. Best are Unitarians for some reason. Next Hindus, then Jews, then Episcopalians, then Presbyterians. Faring worst are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#mediaviewer/File:Educational_Ranking_by_Religious_Group_-_2001.png

My opinion is that at college age those who doubt are showing intelligence. In older people it means less as more knowledge and experience may give people a reason to believe. Also as we get older we tend to return to what we were brought up with.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Okay, so, in other words, we should bring back racism, gender bias and homophobia? Embrace them fully and make them the law of the land? Really?? The fact that we cannot legally do so is really what's wrong with America? Is this what you're saying?

I think you have your priority pants on backwards, sir.

We should not avoid the truth even if it offends people.

So let's say that atheists are smarter than Christians like me. Does that mean that they are better than I? No, that would be the interpretation of the arrogant and spiritually blind from my view. It might actually help Christians generate more humility. After all, it says that we are made strong in our weakness. When we empty ourselves and let God run things is when real power comes.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Make up your mind. First you say it doesn't matter after the fact, then you say we should do something about it. Which is it?

Why is anyone running from the truth?

Give my one good reason why we should.

Originally posted by DeepThought
There's plenty of socio-economic stuff going on,

I realize from that chart that one possible factor is that Asian students often do better at school (for cultural reasons) and thus whatever religion (or lack thereof) is prevalent amoungst that community will get a boost on the education chart.

Originally posted by whodey
We should not avoid the truth even if it offends people.

So let's say that atheists are smarter than Christians like me. Does that mean that they are better than I? No, that would be the interpretation of the arrogant and spiritually blind from my view. It might actually help Christians generate more humility. After all, it says that we are made strong in our weakness. When we empty ourselves and let God run things is when real power comes.

At best it's nothing to be able to pat yourself on the back, going, I'm atheist and I'm better than you! It is a couple percent difference, not enough to write home about but maybe enough for some graduate student to pick up a Phd....

Originally posted by sonhouse
At best it's nothing to be able to pat yourself on the back, going, I'm atheist and I'm better than you! It is a couple percent difference, not enough to write home about but maybe enough for some graduate student to pick up a Phd....

You simply don't give yourself enough credit. You know how infinitely better you are than those of faith. You have said it time and again on these forums. Time and again those of faith are accused of supporting genocide and other various crimes against humanity because they side with the God of the Bible.

So get out there and thrust your chest out and hold your head high knowing that your own righteousness, and now intelligence, is superior to those of faith.