Parable of the king and debt

Originally posted by Eladar
I don't think you see the distinction I am making. If you can't see it we'll just have to disagree.

Let's see. I pointed out that what you wrote is undeniably wrong. Instead of admitting it. you have the temerity to pretend that the problem is with my not being able to "see the distinction [you] are making".

You're wrong. Why don't you just admit it?

I fully understand that you project your beliefs onto the words of God and Jesus instead of accepting what they actually say. This is what YOU need to "see".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let's see. I pointed out that what you wrote is undeniably wrong. Instead of admitting it. you have the temerity to pretend that the problem is with my not being able to "see the distinction [you] are making".

You're wrong. Why don't you just admit it?

I fully understand that you project your beliefs onto the words of God and Jesus instead of accepting what they actually say. This is what YOU need to "see".

Maybe you haven't read the new testament and specifically hebrews

Originally posted by Eladar
Maybe you haven't read the new testament and specifically hebrews

You certainly are prideful. Why do you think you can't bring yourself to admit that you were wrong?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You certainly are prideful. Why do you think you can't bring yourself to admit that you were wrong?

Have you read hebrews? Do you believe what it says?

Originally posted by Eladar
Have you read hebrews? Do you believe what it says?

If I may ask, what part of Hebrews are you speaking of.

Originally posted by Eladar

We all know that we can't repay our sin debt to God. It is only by his forgiveness through Jesus' sacrifice that we can be saved.

The eternally saved believer is a person with his dept paid.
The dept is not overlooked.
The dept is paid.

So Jesus tells the parable of how a man received forgiveness but then did not forgive another person. When the king heard of this he reinstated the debt and handed the guy over to be tortured until he repaid the debt.

You are referencing Matthew 18:23-35 including its conclusive lesson in verse 35:

"So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.35)

So, we can rest assured that Jesus is telling the parable for the sake of those who believe in Him and are brothers. (Jewish brothers would not be totally wrong. But let's go with Christian brothers). He does say "your heavenly Father".

He was saved from his sins but then lost his salvation. He is handed over to be tortured forever because the debt he owed he could never pay back.

The servant in the parable definitely suffered loss. But was this loss his eternal redemption?

First Corinthians 3:13,14 speaks of saved Christians either being rewarded in addition to being saved or suffering loss yet in addition to still being saved:

"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward. (v.14)

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (v.15)

1.) A Christian can be saved and receive a reward.
2.) A Christian can be saved and suffer loss, not being rewarded.
3.) A Christian can be saved "yet so as through fire"

This should mean "saved" yet passing through something adverse.

4.) The whole teaching is pertaining to AFTER Christ comes back and brings His judgment seat as indicated by "the day"... a specific time common to all believers.

"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is." (v.13)

5.) [T]he work is not the work of unbelievers because it is "the work" done on the one foundation of Jesus Christ (v.11) [/b]

6.) To suffer loss yet still be saved should indicate that there is some time limit on the period of suffering loss.

7.) Because "suffer loss" is open ended and could entail a wide scope of possible ways to suffer, we would be well advised to believe that that scope could include torment as the teaching in Matthew 18:23-35 indicates.

"And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed."

8.) If the master represents Jesus Christ, and He knows only He can pay the sinner's debt, it is doubtful that He would use the words "until .." indicating a termination date as to the period of suffering loss.

Since we know some Christians will "suffer loss" and still be saved, this parable must point to them.

The footnote of the Recovery Bible on Matthew 18:34 helps:

This refers to the Lord's dealing with His believers at His coming back, If we do not forgive the brother who sins against us, we will be disciplined by the Lord until we forgive him from the heart, i.e., until we repay all that is owed. Then the Lord will forgive us, This is forgiveness in the kingdom. This implies that if we do not forgive a brother from our heart today, we will not be allowed to enter into the kingdom in the coming age ..."

This includes eternally redeemed people who will suffer loss but will be nonetheless "saved yet as through fire"

Was Jesus correct when he then said this is how it is with us and God?

No two Christian brothers will both go into the 1,000 year millennial kingdom who have an unforgiven offense between them.

Either ONE will enter and the OTHER will be left out.
Or both will be left out.

" So also will My heavenly Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.35)

This is a debt related to the reward or discipline of the coming kingdom.
This is not a repaying of the PAID debt that Christ paid in full on Calvary for eternal redemption.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If I may ask, what part of Hebrews are you speaking of.

The part that says that the sacrifices of the old testament did not cover sins, but the blood of Jesus Christ covers the sins of all who are saved.


Hebrews 9-10

Specifically For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Originally posted by sonship

We all know that we can't repay our sin debt to God. It is only by his forgiveness through Jesus' sacrifice that we can be saved.

The eternally saved believer is a person with his dept paid.
The dept is not overlooked.
The dept is paid.

[quote]
So Jesus tells the parable of how a man received forgiveness but then did not forgive an ...[text shortened]... s is not a repaying of the PAID debt that Christ paid in full on Calvary for eternal redemption.

The parable says until the debt is paid by the person without forgiveness from the King.

Not possible.

You can try to say that this is not right, but all you are saying is that Jesus is wrong.

Originally posted by Eladar
We all know that we can't repay our sin debt to God. It is only by his forgiveness through Jesus' sacrifice that we can be saved.

So Jesus tells the parable of how a man received forgiveness but then did not forgive another person. When the king heard of this he reinstated the debt and handed the guy over to be tortured until he repaid the debt.


He wa ...[text shortened]... could never pay back.

Was Jesus correct when he then said this is how it is with us and God?

If one can lose one's "salvation", then it is not, by definition "salvation". It also cannot be eternal as it is clearly transitory, and therefore fetchmyjunk's ramblings about god finishing the work he started is completely wrong, not to mention god saying "no one can deliver out of my hand".

Originally posted by divegeester
If one can lose one's "salvation", then it is not, by definition "salvation". It also cannot be eternal as it is clearly transitory, and therefore fetchmyjunk's ramblings about god finishing the work he started is completely wrong, not to mention god saying "no one can deliver out of my hand".

I really am not a big believer in self proclaimed salvation.

God will make the call until then who knows. We can't even judge our hearts.

Originally posted by Eladar
I really am not a big believer in self proclaimed salvation.

God will make the call until then who knows. We can't even judge our hearts.

Those who practice self-proclaimed salvation are suffering from the worlds greatest delusion. Christ decides who will enter the Kingdom of God.

Originally posted by Eladar
I really am not a big believer in self proclaimed salvation.

If you end up deciding to confront sonship for the ideology of what he peddles, then, he might end up calling you the anti-Christ or some such holier-than-thou Christotrashtalk. Just a community-member's heads up, that's all. It's all harmless holy willy-waving on his part, after all.

Originally posted by Eladar

The parable says until the debt is paid by the person without forgiveness from the King.

Not possible.

You can try to say that this is not right, but all you are saying is that Jesus is wrong.

There are different kinds of forgiveness.

In First John the Apostle John is speaking to Christians who have been both redeemed eternally and forgiven for sins through the propitiatory offering of Jesus Christ. He teaches them that they HAVE .... HAVE eternal life. That is HAVE and not wait to see how it turns out or hope that it is so.

1.) John says that they HAVE eternal life.

2.) Yet John also teaches them to confess their sins.

According to man's way of thinking, there should be no need to confess their sins if they are already in possession of eternal life.

But there is confession and forgiveness required for abiding and enjoying the Holy Spirit. And this kind of repenting and asking for forgiveness effects the reward in the coming kingdom.

I have no supplied verses as text proofs because I am limited in time. But if you wish I can provide proof texts of what I just wrote in brief.

You should be able to ascertain this though. For believing in Jesus and confessing He is Lord, MAY be done without realizing ALL of the sins you are accustomed to practicing.

So you receive salvation because of believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth. NOW ... as you begin to grow in spiritual life (hopefully) you are gradually enlightened about your behavior on a daily basis. And to go ON to grow more deeply in fellowship with Christ asking for forgiveness is required.

Proverbs says this -

" But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until the full day." (Prov. 4:18)

1.) A man gets saved eternally by believing Jesus is his Lord and confessing Him.

2.) As he begins his spiritual journey, his awareness of the sinning in his living grows. And he encreases in light as "brighter and brighter". When this encrease of light occurs he will become aware of needing to CONFESS and forsake certain sins as Jesus is growing in his life.

This confessing, as in, say, holding grudges and not being willing to forgive a fellow Christian, needs to be overcome.

The victorious saved Christians will learn to forgive and receive reward.
the defeated yet saved Christian is in danger of suffering loss yet still being saved.

The parable is about a saved man who did not learn to forgive others, He does not take seriously HOW MUCH, how VERY MUCH, God forgave him his offenses. Because he has not learn to be Christlike in forgiving the depts of others as he was forgiven, he will be disciplined during the millennial time.

The discipline is "UNTIL" a point of termination. This proves that it is not eternal perdition but dispensational punishment.

Eternal punishment has no "UNTIL" . It is not meant to perfect. Punishment during the millennial kingdom is meant to perfect the sons of God.

Originally posted by sonship

The parable says until the debt is paid by the person without forgiveness from the King.

Not possible.

You can try to say that this is not right, but all you are saying is that Jesus is wrong.

There are different kinds of forgiveness.

In [b] First John the Apostle John is speaking to Christians who have been both redeem ...[text shortened]... meant to perfect. Punishment during the millennial kingdom is meant to perfect the sons of God.[/b]

As I read through this I see a recurring message: this can't say what it appears to say because of what I believe the Bible says in other places.

Originally posted by Eladar
As I read through this I see a recurring message: this can't say what it appears to say because of what I believe the Bible says in other places.

In other words sonship is full of bull ... ok .. we get it... 😀