Rev 14:9-11 literal or not?

The Revelation of Jesus Christ 14:9-11
Contemporary English Version

You will have to drink the wine that God gives to everyone who makes him angry. You will feel his mighty anger, and you will be tortured with fire and burning sulfur, while the holy angels and the Lamb look on.

Literal or not?

@divegeester said
The Revelation of Jesus Christ 14:9-11
Contemporary English Version

You will have to drink the wine that God gives to everyone who makes him angry. You will feel his mighty anger, and you will be tortured with fire and burning sulfur, while the holy angels and the Lamb look on.

Literal or not?

That passage in the KJV is

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11 KJV)

I would say literal.

@rajk999 said
That passage in the KJV is

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presen ...[text shortened]... and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11 KJV)

I would say literal.

I thought you didn’t believe in eternal torture?

@divegeester said
I thought you didn’t believe in eternal torture?

I dont believe in eternal torture for people. There are two types of evildoers, humans and the devils angels. One is a flesh and bones being, the other is a spirit being. The humans who do evil are in this category:

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:6-8 KJV)

These die, permanently and there is no coming back. Your passage refers to [in my opinion], those who worship the Beast, aka the devils angels. If there are humans in this category they will be destroyed.

@rajk999 said
I dont believe in eternal torture for people. There are two types of evildoers, humans and the devils angels. One is a flesh and bones being, the other is a spirit being. The humans who do evil are in this category:

[i]And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of lif ...[text shortened]... ship the Beast, aka the devils angels. If there are humans in this category they will be destroyed.

Kellyjay may be interested in adopting your version of the string of these verses.

@divegeester said
Kellyjay may be interested in adopting your version of the string of these verses.

I know he believes that anyone who does not have faith is tormented for eternity. I do not share that view. So his view takes the two extremes...
- eternal life for Christians
- eternal torture for non-Christians
There is no in-between.

My view is
- eternal life for all who keep the commandments
- death or annihilation for disobedient humans who do not keep the commandments
- eternal torture for the Devil and his angels.

@divegeester said
The Revelation of Jesus Christ 14:9-11
Contemporary English Version

You will have to drink the wine that God gives to everyone who makes him angry. You will feel his mighty anger, and you will be tortured with fire and burning sulfur, while the holy angels and the Lamb look on.

Literal or not?

The language used is figurative, but John himself could have be presenting it as a factual account. (Or at least wanting it to be understood as a factual account).

@rajk999 said

My view is
- eternal life for all who keep the commandments
- death or annihilation for disobedient humans who do not keep the commandments
- eternal torture for the Devil and his angels.

Each to their own cherries

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The language used is figurative, but John himself could have be presenting it as a factual account. (Or at least wanting it to be understood as a factual account).

Is that your final answer?

@divegeester said
The Revelation of Jesus Christ 14:9-11
Contemporary English Version

You will have to drink the wine that God gives to everyone who makes him angry. You will feel his mighty anger, and you will be tortured with fire and burning sulfur, while the holy angels and the Lamb look on.

Literal or not?

Literal or not?

I don't know. The book of Revelation mixes figurative, and literal messages told in an allegory style, making it difficult to decipher. I'm hesitant about forming opinions regarding what is literal, and what is not.

@divegeester said
Is that your final answer?

Who are you, Jeremy Clarkson?

@mchill said
The book of Revelation mixes figurative, and literal messages told in an allegory style, making it difficult to decipher.

Surely "messages told in an allegory style" are, by definition, not "literal", right? You can't describe "allegorical messages" as being "literal messages".

@fmf said
Surely "messages told in an allegory style" are, by definition, not "literal", right? You can't describe "allegorical messages" as being "literal messages".

You can't describe "allegorical messages" as being "literal messages".


This book was based on Paul's visions regarding the end times. Paul was using his limited vocabulary and understanding to describe machines and technology that would only begin to exist in the distant future. Without knowing exactly what Paul saw, I wouldn't know what a literal message in this book is, and what is not.

@mchill said
I wouldn't know what a literal message in this book is, and what is not.

Ah, yes, and there we have it.

Thanks for your usual bit of old flannel. 🙂

@fmf said
Ah, yes, and there we have it.

Thanks for your usual bit of old flannel. 🙂

Thanks for your usual bit of old flannel. 🙂

The operative word here is OLD. Trying to accurately interpret a vision one man had nearly 20 centuries ago, that have baffled bible scholars to this day makes no sense - no matter how many little bits of sarcasm you like to toss in my direction.