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22 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
If it is true that Witness Lee bragged that he could teach contradictory ideas and get away with it, as one of his pupils indicated, then it would be wise not to put much faith in his teachings.
You never provided any quotation by which such bragging can be seen.
There is much much more healthy teaching in any message I can think of given by Witness Lee then in all the books I have seen arguing that Genesis is an exhaustive scientific explanation of how God created everything.
The basic book of Christian doctrine is Paul's letter to the Romans. Paul spends some time to say that the things created demonstrate the eternal power and divine attributes of God as Creator.
There is no chapter in Romans arguing for how long the days had to be in Genesis. But there is very much space given to things like the revelation of justification, sanctification, identification, indwelling, living in the Spirit to overcome, being built into oneness, etc.
Just taking Paul's epistle of Romans alone, here are the list exceedingly healthy spiritual message based upon it.
A Foreword
The Gospel of God
The Source of Wickedness and the Way of Restriction
The Vanity of Religion and the Totality of Hopelessness
Justification in God's Way
The Example of Justification
The Subjective Experience of Justification (1)
The Subjective Experience of Justification (2)
The Result of Justification—the Full Enjoyment of God in Christ
The Gift in Christ Surpassing the Heritage in Adam
Identification with Christ
The Bondage of the Law in Our Flesh (1)
The Bondage of the Law in Our Flesh (2)
The Freedom of the Spirit in Our Spirit (1)
The Freedom of the Spirit in Our Spirit (2)
The Freedom of the Spirit in Our Spirit (3)
Sanctification in Life
Heirs of Glory (1)
Heirs of Glory (2)
Heirs of Glory (3)
Heirs of Glory (4)
God's Selection, Our Destiny (1)
God's Selection, Our Destiny (2)
God's Economy in His Selection
Transformation In Practicing the Body Life (1)
Transformation In Practicing the Body Life (2)
Transformation In Practicing the Body Life (3)
Transformation In Subjection, Love, and Warfare
Transformation in Receiving the Believers (1)
Transformation in Receiving the Believers (2)
The Consummation of the Gospel
A Closing Word
The Basic Concept of Romans
The Basic Points in Chapters Five through Eight
Being Freed from Sin, the Law, and the Flesh
Being Freed from Death (1)
Being Freed from Death (2)
Law in Romans Seven and Eight
Life and Death in Romans Five through Eight
Abiding in Christ by Minding the Spirit
Saved in Life from Sin and Worldliness
Saved in Life from Naturalness
Saved in Life from Individualism
Saved in Life from Divisiveness
Saved in Life from Self-Likeness (1)
Saved in Life from Self-Likeness (2)
Reigning in Life by Grace
The Meaning of Reigning in Life
Reigning in Life Over Death
Reigning in Life Over Satan
The Flesh and the Spirit
Serving in the Gospel of His Son
Designation
Sonship in Romans
Designation in Resurrection
Designation by the Spirit of Holiness
Designation by the Mingled Spirit
Righteousness—the Power of the Gospel
The Selection of Grace
The Practice of the Body Life
The Dispensation of the Triune God for the Fulfillment of His Purpose
The Dispensation of the Triune God according to His Righteousness, through His Holiness, and Unto His Glory
The Life of the Triune God Dispensed into the Tripartite Man
Not an Exchanged Life, but a Grafted Life
Transformation and Conformation by the Grafted Life (1)
Transformation and Conformation by the Grafted Life (2)
God Condemning Sin in the Flesh
The Processed God Being the Law of the Spirit of Life
God Condemning Sin in the Flesh That We May Be In the Spirit
Being in the Spirit to Experience the Work of the Spirit
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=2B2282
And you're spending the dusk and twilight of your human years arguing about a matter of six 24 hours of which not a word is spoken in the book of Romans. That God is the Creator and that no one is with excuse not to realize this, definitely, is covered by Paul.
Aside from this matter you are laboring on nothing much emphasized in this book of basic Christian belief for the health of the church.
23 Jul 14
3 edits
Originally posted by sonshipJohn 3:1-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
And you're spending the dusk and twilight of your human years arguing about a matter of six 24 hours of which not a word is spoken in the book of Romans. That God is the Creator and that no one is with excuse not to realize this, definitely, is covered by Paul.
Aside from this matter you are laboring on nothing much emphasized in this book of basic Christian belief for the health of the church.
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
There are many that do not believe in the earthly things taught in Genesis. So as Jesus said, "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"
This is why I concentrate on teaching the earthly things, such as the six days of creation, so that once they believe those earthly things, that they might also be able to move on to believe heavenly things.
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27 Jul 14
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsHow much time do you actually see Jesus spend teaching "earthly things" in the Gospel of John? I would say that He spent a miniscule amount of time talking about "earthly things". In the paragraphs that you quoted He did not devote much speaking to the things of natural science.
John 3:1-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
[quote] Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one ...[text shortened]... elieve those earthly things, that they might also be able to move on to believe heavenly things.
It is good to proclaim God as the Creator. Paul proclaimed God as the Creator on Mars Hill in the book of Acts. But at the same time the book of Hebrews says that it is by faith that we understand that the universe was framed by the word of God.
You can speak of the evidence of God's eternal power seen in creation. But Hebrews 11 does not say that by science we know God is the Creator but by faith.
"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear." (Heb. 11:3)
Witness Lee wrote a book, many would say a tremendous Christian book entitled "The Economy of God". It is based upon this passage:
"Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things nor give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy which is in faith." (1 Tim.1:3,4)
The key phrase for the premise of this book is "not to teach differently ... rather than God's economy [OIKONOMIA] which is in faith."
God's economy is God's household management. It is the law of the house literally. It is the way in which God manages His family. Or it is the rules governing the His management of His house.
This word is also translated as dispensation or stewardship in the NT. But what "God's economy which is in faith" shows is that the whole realm of God's management of His plan takes place in faith.
The preaching of all that Christ is, leaving out no aspect of His Person, is to nourish faith. It is to inform faith and strengthen faith. By faith Christ makes His home in our hearts (Eph. 3:17).
The Son given being called the Eternal Father unto us is a matter of nourishing faith for God's household management.
The Lord being the Spirit living within us is also a matter to nurture faith for God's economy.
Even that the Father sent the Son and the Lord prays to the Father Who sends the Spirit (and the Spirit also comes sent by the Son from the Father) is a matter to feed faith. God's economy is in the realm of faith in the faithful God.
Some have wandered off to teach science "so-called" and even become opponents to Scripture statements. Paul warned Timothy about being distracted as an apostle with so called science (or knowledge).
First Timothy 6:20
Jubilee Bible 2000
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, turn away from profane voices and vain things and arguments in the vain name of science,
American King James Version
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to your trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Douay-Rheims Bible
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called.
Darby Bible Translation
O Timotheus, keep the entrusted deposit, avoiding profane, vain babblings, and oppositions of false-named knowledge,
English Revised Version
O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called;
Webster's Bible Translation
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called;
Weymouth New Testament
O Timothy, guard the truths entrusted to you, shunning irreligious and frivolous talk, and controversy with what is falsely called 'knowledge';
You have suppressed the word of God which feeds faith in Isaiah 9:6 and in 1 Cor. 15:45 and in 2 Cor. 3:17. These truths nourish faith. And God's economy is in the realm of faith ... "God's economy which is in faith".
Don't you think you can go too far into trying to persuade people that God's word is inspired because so called science confirms it ? At least we can see Paul warning his co-worker that that danger existed.
This does not only go for teaching Evolution to replace God. It can also happen with teaching scientific anti-Evolution while arguing against the utterances of the Bible about all that Christ is.
27 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipI do not argue against what the Holy Bible reveals about Christ. I only argue against what some people think the Holy Bible reveals about Christ.
How much time do you actually see Jesus spend teaching "earthly things" in the Gospel of John? I would say that He spent a miniscule amount of time talking about "earthly things". In the paragraphs that you quoted He did not devote much speaking to the things of natural science.
It is good to proclaim God as the Creator. Paul proclaimed God as the Creat ...[text shortened]... tific anti-Evolution while arguing against the utterances of the Bible about all that Christ is.
27 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonship"But Hebrews 11 does not say that by science we know God is the Creator but by faith."
But Hebrews 11 does not say that by science we know God is the Creator but by faith.
No it doesn't say that we know God is the creator by faith. It says that, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,.."
We know that God created heaven and earth from from Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
Sonship, you make a lot of statements interspersed throughout your posts intermingled with the scriptures that are not scriptural. You promote ideas and concepts that obscure the truth in very subtle ways. I don't think you even realize you're doing it. You pile it on thick and heavy, and only RJ is replying. Besides me, I don't think anyone else is paying any attention. You're going way to deep theologically to do justice to the debate in this forum, which is rudimentary at best.
Just my opinion, but you are over spiritualizing some of the scripture, which is the error of covenantalism.
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27 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by josephw
[b]"But Hebrews 11 does not say that by science we know God is the Creator but by faith."
No it doesn't say that we know God is the creator by faith. It says that, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,.."
We know that God created heaven and earth from from Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven ...[text shortened]... ion, but you are over spiritualizing some of the scripture, which is the error of covenantalism.[/b]
No it doesn't say that we know God is the creator by faith. It says that, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,.."
We know that God created heaven and earth from from Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
I don't see a big difference. I think the writer of Hebrews probably had Genesis 1:1 in mind when he wrote under inspiration -
"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear." (Heb. 11:3)
1.) Before God created the heavens and the earth nothing that appeared certainly was in existence. Don't we take Genesis 1:1 by faith ?
2.) The immediately following Hebrews 11:4 is about the faith of Abel.
"By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice. And after [b]Abel the writer goes on the the faith of Enoch and then Noah.
The historical sequence reinforces the assumption that the writer is working his way from Genesis chapter 1 when God created the universe "in the beginning" onward through the flow of history.
I do not see a real difference between the creation of the universe understood by faith and the framing of the universe by the word of God. In either case (if a difference was implied) we know these things by faith.
None of us was there to witness it as the last chapters of Job assure the wisest of the world's men.
Sonship, you make a lot of statements interspersed throughout your posts intermingled with the scriptures that are not scriptural.
In the case presently being discussed, I don't see yet where I have non-scriptural opinions with the Scripture. It seems so far that you are trying to make an issue that Genesis 1:1 is different from "the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear."
As of yet I don't see your point. I think the writer had Genesis creation event in mind. We are also told in Psalm 33 that God spoke and the world came into being.
"By the word of Jehovah the heavens were made, And all their host, by the breath of His mouth" (Psalm 33:6a)
"Let all the earth fear Jehovah; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. For He spoke, and it was; He commanded, and it stood." (v.8,9)
If you wish to rebuke me, it would be good to do so about something that I actually did. You don't have much of case here.
You promote ideas and concepts that obscure the truth in very subtle ways. I don't think you even realize you're doing it. You pile it on thick and heavy, and only RJ is replying.
You are going to have to be much more specific. The Bible is not, in fact, always easy to understand.
The Apostle Paul in Galatians makes a major point about the difference between the singular form or a word and the plural form.
But to Abraham were the promises spoken nd to his seed. He does not say, "And to the seeds," as concerning many but as concerning one: " And to your seed," who is Christ. (Gal. 3:16)
Paul invest a significant theological point on the subtle difference between the word "seed" and "seeds". Would you also say he is sneaking his own opinions in?
Sometimes important revelation is based on careful examination of what the word actually has written.
Maybe you have just taken some things for easy granted which I am more carefully helping you to examine more closely.
Besides me, I don't think anyone else is paying any attention.
Maybe. And maybe a popularity contest is not the uppermost priority I have as I write.
If I want a lot of attention I could easily give some sensational title to a thread like "Sex Before Marriage" or some salacious eye grabbing title that would be really "popular".
Are you whining ? Point out exactly what it is you feel is weak exegesis.
You're going way to deep theologically to do justice to the debate in this forum, which is rudimentary at best.
Just my opinion, but you are over spiritualizing some of the scripture, which is the error of covenantalism.
Are you going to define "covenantalism" or just assume I know what you mean ?
This Thread, coming back the main point is about this:
To deny some aspect of what the Bible says Christ is, is in the principle of denying some revealed truth about Christ and replacing that truth with something else.
And as long as some poster around the Forum speak that the Son cannot be the Father according to Isaiah 9:6 or that the Lord cannot be the Spirit according to 2 Cor. 3:17, I will allow this thread to remain open.
Do I sometimes go off on tangents ? Yes I do, if that is your beef.
Conversational discussion Forums are sometimes like that if you didn't notice yet.
31 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonship"I don't see a big difference. I think the writer of Hebrews probably had Genesis 1:1 in mind when he wrote under inspiration -
I don't see a big difference.
"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear." (Heb. 11:3)"
Hebrews 11:3 KJV
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Are you going to say there's no difference between these two quotes? The Word of God is word specific. Change a word, and the meaning is changed!
"Before God created the heavens and the earth nothing that appeared certainly was in existence."
That is not what the verse is saying! I'm not going to explain it to you. Read it, and let it say what it is saying.
"I do not see a real difference between the creation of the universe understood by faith and the framing of the universe by the word of God."
Somewhat convoluted statement. It's not a question of seeing a difference between "the framing of the universe by the word of God" and "the creation of the universe understood by faith". The verse says "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,.."
Why extrapolate further? Why add further to what is said? Why think to include the idea that there's something not to "...see a real difference between..."?
"None of us was there to witness it..."
Precisely. What we see is the Word of God. Deviating from the script causes error in our understanding.
"In the case presently being discussed, I don't see yet where I have non-scriptural opinions with the Scripture."
It's not easy to point out, and it's not as though I would accuse you of heresy. Most of what you say aligns with the Word of God. I think I explained above to what you said about Hebrews 11:3 gives you an idea of where I'm coming from. I hope.
"The Bible is not, in fact, always easy to understand."
Only because of how it is understood.
"Paul invest a significant theological point on the subtle difference between the word "seed" and "seeds". Would you also say he is sneaking his own opinions in?"
Do you know why Paul makes a difference between "seed" and "seeds"? Why would you ask me if I thought Paul was "sneaking" in his own opinions? Paul was an Apostle by the will of God to ",.. to fulfil the word of God;" Col. 3:25c.
"Sometimes important revelation is based on careful examination of what the word actually has written."
I think you must be referring to 2 Timothy 2:15. Otherwise I really have no idea what you mean by that statement.
"Maybe you have just taken some things for easy granted which I am more carefully helping you to examine more closely."
By default perhaps, but thank you just the same, I have enough teachers.
"Are you going to define "covenantalism" or just assume I know what you mean?"
If you are unaware of the debate between covenantalism and dispensationalism you should google it. After you do, then we can go at it. It would be fun.
"This Thread, coming back the main point is about this:
To deny some aspect of what the Bible says Christ is, is in the principle of denying some revealed truth about Christ and replacing that truth with something else."
God forbid! To add to or to take away from the Word of God is the work of the adversary and his ministers, and is nothing new.
But I would not want to confuse that with simple error.
"And as long as some poster around the Forum speak that the Son cannot be the Father according to Isaiah 9:6 or that the Lord cannot be the Spirit according to 2 Cor. 3:17, I will allow this thread to remain open."
Go for it sonship, but I think you are intermingling doctrine from out of its context to arrive at conclusions that are not specifically expressed by the context you pull verses from. That's how error occurs.
31 Jul 14
Originally posted by josephwTheology is like an onion, starting with nothing, adding more and more layers till you have this artifact that lives on its own irregardless of any intrinsic value.
[b]"I don't see a big difference. I think the writer of Hebrews probably had Genesis 1:1 in mind when he wrote under inspiration -
"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear." (Heb. 11:3)"
Hebrews 11:3 KJV
Through faith we understand that th ...[text shortened]... hat are not specifically expressed by the context you pull verses from. That's how error occurs.[/b]
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05 Aug 14
4 edits
Originally posted by josephwJoseph,
I have been away from this for some days. Without re-reading everything I'll try to pick up from before.
Hebrews 11:3 KJV
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Are you going to say there's no difference between these two quotes? The Word of God is word specific. Change a word, and the meaning is changed!
By faith we understand that the ultimate source of the entire created universe is God. However, and whatever passage we would like to refer to, we were not THERE and we understand that God is the Creator.
We Christians trust His word.
By natural revelation, I think we also understand this.
Though we do not know how, Someone bigger than you and I created the universe.
God does not forbid us to try to find out HOW He did it.
But He has told us in His written book so.
And something in the intuitive nature within man tells him so also.
Are we on the same page?
sonship:
"Before God created the heavens and the earth nothing that appeared certainly was in existence."
joseph:
That is not what the verse is saying! I'm not going to explain it to you. Read it, and let it say what it is saying.
If you think I am misrepresenting the passage, it is possible.
What is says is rather simple.
"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has bot come into being out of the things which appear." (Hebrews 11:3)
Exactly where our disagreement is has me a bit puzzled.
You seem to think I misunderstand that passage's purpose.
I don't know now (picking up after some intervening days) if you are making an issue that created and framed are different ?
sonship:
"I do not see a real difference between the creation of the universe understood by faith and the framing of the universe by the word of God."
joseph:
Somewhat convoluted statement. It's not a question of seeing a difference between "the framing of the universe by the word of God" and "the creation of the universe understood by faith". The verse says "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,.."
That is what is said. And after the word God we have " ... so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear."
Why extrapolate further? Why add further to what is said? Why think to include the idea that there's something not to "...see a real difference between..."?
The writer added to what was said.
"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God,
plus the addition -
" ... so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear."
"None of us was there to witness it..."
That's for sure.
Precisely. What we see is the Word of God. Deviating from the script causes error in our understanding.
You lost me.
However, if my expounding caused some confusion, that is possible.
Sorry for that.
I think we have a non-issue. But be careful. If I expound and you cry "confusion" then it could also be cried "confusion" when you also add your two cents.
IE. "
Precisely. What we see is the Word of God. Deviating from the script causes error in our understanding.
What exactly does that mean, I do not know.
What we see is the Word of God.
Not sure what YOUR additional explanation really means.
Nor do I see immediately why when I expound I cause confusion (which is possible) but when YOU expound you do not necessarily.
sonship:
"In the case presently being discussed, I don't see yet where I have non-scriptural opinions with the Scripture."
joseph:
It's not easy to point out, and it's not as though I would accuse you of heresy. Most of what you say aligns with the Word of God. I think I explained above to what you said about Hebrews 11:3 gives you an idea of where I'm coming from. I hope.
Not sure I get you. But that I can be a poor teacher of the Bible in the way of ministering life, I would not dispute (sometimes).
sonship:
"The Bible is not, in fact, always easy to understand."
joseph:
Only because of how it is understood.
It is not always easy to understand.
sonship:
"Paul invest a significant theological point on the subtle difference between the word "seed" and "seeds". Would you also say he is sneaking his own opinions in?"
joseph:
Do you know why Paul makes a difference between "seed" and "seeds"? Why would you ask me if I thought Paul was "sneaking" in his own opinions? Paul was an Apostle by the will of God to ",.. to fulfil the word of God;" Col. 3:25c.
To " to fulfill the word of God" or to "complete the word of God" (RcV) .
My only point was that a proper understanding of God's word there (which was the OT then, all that they had) hinged upon such a small detail - the tense of the "seed" - plural or singular.
A minute matter made a major difference. It is not always easy to understand the Bible - then or today, I mean, either then, when the Bible was the OT or today when the Bible is the OT and NT.
"Sometimes important revelation is based on careful examination of what the word actually has written."
I think you must be referring to 2 Timothy 2:15. Otherwise I really have no idea what you mean by that statement.
Second Timothy 2:15 is a good exhortation for us to cut like a carpenter, straight, in handling the Scriptures.
The example I used to show that the Scripture is not always easy to understand is Paul's helping the Galatians to see what exactly Scripture said about Abraham's seed.
The fact that Paul had a special function to write 13 or so of the New Testament's 27 books as an apostle, doesn't make the need for careful handling of the (not always easy to understand Scripture) go away.
As God "sent" sent ones then, He could also send send ones today.
God could even "send" you to explain something to me.
The degree of your utilization by God may differ from His utilization of the Apostle Paul. But in nature you could both be "sent" and Bible readers could be helped to understand.
sonship:
"Maybe you have just taken some things for easy granted which I am more carefully helping you to examine more closely."
By default perhaps, but thank you just the same, I have enough teachers.
You have enough teachers.
I hope that doesn't mean you do not realize that we may all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged (1 Cor. 13:14)
I enjoy and can benefit from your teaching. I was brought up to appreciate that all the saints may speak for the Lord and speak forth the Lord for mutual edification.
"For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged." (1 Cor. 14:31)
If you received no help from me, then I accept that. Maybe some other time you might. I certainly do not dismiss your fellowship because I have many teachers.
sonship:
"Are you going to define "covenantalism" or just assume I know what you mean?"
If you are unaware of the debate between covenantalism and dispensationalism you should google it. After you do, then we can go at it. It would be fun.
There are so many debates, I don't know all of them.
I do remember years ago someone saying to me something similar to what you just said. He seemed to want to draw my attention to a dispensationalism verses covenant theology dispute.
I never followed through on his comment. Probably because I think he assumed that I carry a label "Dispensationalism".
I do not know everything that label means to him. I could admit to certain concepts of so-called dispensationalists and not go along with others. Since he didn't get specific I didn't feel to go hunt for the arguments.
I think FOUR so-called dispensations are adequate and biblical. I see the reasoning of those who argue for seven dispensations. While I can see their point, I think FOUR dispensations are probably more clearly spelled out in Scripture.
Are you interested in me going on about that?
"This Thread, coming back the main point is about this:
To deny some aspect of what the Bible says Christ is, is in the principle of denying some revealed truth about Christ and replacing that truth with something else."
God forbid! To add to or to take away from the Word of God is the work of the adversary and his ministers, and is nothing new.
But I would not want to confuse that with simple error.
What error ?
An error I made ?
Do you agree that the Son is to be called Eternal Father?
Then there is no error.
If like RJHinds you argue that the Son should NOT be called Eternal Father (at least in some major portions of God's outworking of His salvation) then that would be an error.
And it would be an error to say that the Lord is NOT the Spirit when 2 Cor. 3:17 says "Now the Lord is the Spirit".
Denying these truths is along the principle of the antichrist. That is to take away SOME aspect from the Scripture of what the Scripture affirms Christ to be.
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05 Aug 14
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The greater majority of Christian ministers and theologians fall prey to the prinicple of antichrist. Their doing so in unintentional usually.
You will find Christians saying Jesus is not a creature.
You will find some denying that the Son could be the Father.
You will find some denying that the Lord could be the Spirit.
For instance, some Christians, fighting against Arianism of the Jehovah's Witnesses, would be strong to argue that Christ is God. Yet in their zeal to prove this they unwittingly deny that Jesus Christ was incarnated to be a man. And man is an item of the creation of God (Gen. 1:27).
So what can we do? We can do nothing accept affirm what will draw down the mocking of the natural minded skeptic - Jesus Christ is both the Creator and the creature.
To deny EITHER is to unconcioustly (perhaps) fall into the principle of antichrist. Christ, as revealed in Scripture, is denied in SOME aspect of the totality of what He is, and replaced by something else.
In the days of the Apostle John some denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. These were among the "many antichrists" that "have come".
The specifics may vary today. The prinicple is the same. The Bible says Christ is a certain matter or accomplished a certain thing and some Bible teachers would deny this.
The word of God says "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Coir. 15:45) . Would you believe it that some teachers would argue against 1 Cor. 15:45. They may strenously point out that Jesus ate fish before the disciples when he was resurrected. And they may point out that He told them to touch and handle Him.
So He did. So He did. But "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Isn't it crucial that Jesus Christ be able to enter into His redeemed people to be their life? Didn't He say that He came that we might have life and that abindantly (John 10:10) .
So the principle of antichrist is a serious setback, a serious error of some believers. They should affirm without partiality all that the Bible teaches about Jesus.
" I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels that you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." (1 Tim. 5:21)
05 Aug 14
Originally posted by sonshipIs it possible for you to write just one or two sentences?
The greater majority of Christian ministers and theologians fall prey to the prinicple of antichrist. Their doing so in unintentional usually.
You will find Christians saying Jesus is not a creature.
You will find some denying that the Son could be the Father.
You will find some denying that the Lord could be the Spirit.
For instance, some ...[text shortened]... you keep these things without prejudice, doing nothing by way of partiality." (1 Tim. 5:21) [/b]
05 Aug 14
Originally posted by josephwChanging a word. Or omitting words to fit your beliefs. This is the biggest problem not only here in this forum, but in all churches.
[b]"I don't see a big difference. I think the writer of Hebrews probably had Genesis 1:1 in mind when he wrote under inspiration -
"By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not come into being out of things which appear." (Heb. 11:3)"
Hebrews 11:3 KJV
Through faith we understand that th ...[text shortened]... hat are not specifically expressed by the context you pull verses from. That's how error occurs.[/b]
It is so very hard to speak the truth when so many don't even know the complete Word.
The true union of all mankind will come in faith, hope, and love in God.
06 Aug 14
Originally posted by PudgenikTell that to your local Boko Haram and Isis.
Changing a word. Or omitting words to fit your beliefs. This is the biggest problem not only here in this forum, but in all churches.
It is so very hard to speak the truth when so many don't even know the complete Word.
The true union of all mankind will come in faith, hope, and love in God.