Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I've admitted my errors on this forum multiple times--- and not simply as a result of being badgered into it.

Have you done so in this thread?

I have clearly understood your intention from the beginning,
No, you have not. My intention has changed quite dramatically during the course of the thread, so you could not possibly have understood it from the beginning.

..as expressed by your own words throughout.
Yet you keep reading between the lines and claiming I have intentions that are not expressed in my actual posts.

I have exactly quoted your words multiple times and you've offered nothing which would challenge the straight forward meaning of the same.
Yes you have quoted my exact words multiple times, but you have also claimed I have said things that I most definitely did not - and you have done this multiple times - despite the straightforward meaning of my posts.

Are you really that daft?
Can't you get it through your preconceived mindset that it doesn't matter if you included the sentence of punishment or not since the sentence of punishment cannot be separated from the sentence of judgment?
Of course it can be separated. I did separate it. I did not mention the judgement, I was talking specifically about labeling the woman a whore and not the judgement.
It is daft to think that the two cannot be separated, and even dafter to claim that because they can't be separated therefore your claim that I said something I didn't say must be correct.

Your ignorance knows no bounds, does it?
You don't even know the questions to ask!
Then why are you so scared of my questions?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Have you done so in this thread?

[b]I have clearly understood your intention from the beginning,
No, you have not. My intention has changed quite dramatically during the course of the thread, so you could not possibly have understood it from the beginning.

..as expressed by your own words throughout.
Yet you keep reading between the li ...[text shortened]... it?
You don't even know the questions to ask![/b]
Then why are you so scared of my questions?[/b]

Ask away...

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I obviously never said anything remotely close to that statement.

You just said a girl having several sex partners is a slut, a whore and so forth. Doesn't that also apply to guys? Besides, what business is it of yours who sleeps with whom? Why do you think you have the right to judge?

Originally posted by sonhouse
You just said a girl having several sex partners is a slut, a whore and so forth. Doesn't that also apply to guys? Besides, what business is it of yours who sleeps with whom? Why do you think you have the right to judge?

I absolutely think it applies to guys, as well.
It is not my position to judge...
unless, of course, I am asked to make a determination with respect to a particular standard and whether or not something falls within the parameters of that standard.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I absolutely think it applies to guys, as well.
It is not my position to judge...
unless, of course, I am asked to make a determination with respect to a particular standard and whether or not something falls within the parameters of that standard.

By what standard do you measure sluttisness in people?

Originally posted by twhitehead

If we ignore for a moment the exact prescribed punishments, can we say that all OT laws were morally correct?
Does anyone believe that the punishments themselves were reasonable for that day and age and thus were also morally 'not wrong'?

I agree with the New Testament that the Old Testament law was " holy, righteous, and good."

"So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good." (Rom. 7:12)

Are there some laws which I do not understand ? Yes, certainly there are.
Are there some laws that I do not like ? Yes, probably there are.

But I trust that all God's ways are righteous.
There are ways that I do not at this time fully understand.
I do not yet see all things through His eyes so to speak.
I believe that as spiritual growth deepens one sees previously misunderstood matters of the ways of God with greater understanding.

The process of realizing the righteousness of certain laws is still growing in me. Since I have come to change my initial negative impression at some things in the Old Testament, I anticipate that other matters will be seen in more accurate light in the future.

The alternative is to believe that God bestowed upon His creatures something which He did not have to give - a superior moral and ethical judgment ability. It does not make sense to me that our Creator would have to come to His creatures to be ethically improved upon. Why should those whom He made be required BY Him to correct His deficiency ?

Where would they have been able to obtain a more righteous character ?

So I rather believe some things we may not understand well enough yet in the Old Testament laws.

Originally posted by sonship
The alternative is to believe that God bestowed upon His creatures something which He did not have to give - a superior moral and ethical judgment ability. It does not make sense to me that our Creator would have to come to His creatures to be ethically improved upon. Why should those whom He made be required BY Him to correct His deficiency ?

Well done.

You are on your way.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Well done.

You are on your way.

I am not on the way towards your atheism. You can rest assured of that.
Or don't be at rest.

Either way the Effect cannot be greater than the Cause.
Created man is the effect. God is the Cause.

Originally posted by sonship

If we ignore for a moment the exact prescribed punishments, can we say that all OT laws were morally correct?
Does anyone believe that the punishments themselves were reasonable for that day and age and thus were also morally 'not wrong'?

I agree with the New Testament that the Old Testament law was [b]" holy, righteous, and good." ...[text shortened]... So I rather believe some things we may not understand well enough yet in the Old Testament laws.[/b]

no, the alternative is to understand that not all of the bible was inspired by god. that the bible is a collection of writings and men decided which ones get included.

god speaks to moses about the 10 laws, and because of that, the israelites' backwards and evil laws get included in the bible as well.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
By what standard do you measure sluttisness in people?

According to purity, a slut is one who engages in sexual relations outside of the bounds of marriage.


What's your real question?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

no, the alternative is to understand that not all of the bible was inspired by god. that the bible is a collection of writings and men decided which ones get included.

Since I only gradually opened up to the whole Bible as the word of God, I sympathize with someone's hesitancy.

So I don't feel to argue over this. I came to the Old Testament through the New Testament. The process was that first the integrity of Jesus gained my utmost respect. Then I noticed that Jesus took the Old Testament as the word of God. So I decided that if it was good for Jesus is must be good for me too.

But this was a gradual process that took time.

god speaks to moses about the 10 laws, and because of that, the israelites' backwards and evil laws get included in the bible as well.[/b]

The Bible includes the things that happened. That fact that "THIS HAPPENED" does not equate to "DO THIS".

You have to be more sober in your thinking. What is recorded is not always what it teaches as conduct to emulate. In fact it is often an example so that we do not make the same stupid mistakes.

It is important that we see the history of the one and only genuine theocratic nation that ever existed. And it is important that we see the universal need for the Savior.

When I encourage people to start reading the Bible, I don't usually send them to Leviticus first. I might suggest the Gospel of John or the Gospel of Luke to begin with.

But it is really up to them. And God can touch our hearts with the truth even if we do start from Leviticus.