Would Hamas be able to get away with firing rockets at Israeli civilians from an independent, internationally recognized and unblockaded Gazan (or Palestinian) state? I suspect not.
I think these tunnels go a long way to explaining Israel's overuse of force. Israel is saying it will destroy these tunnels with or without a ceasefire. This effectively rules out a ceasefire. The tunnels give Hamas the ability to strike within Israeli territory. Without significant concessions Hamas is not going to surrender its only strategic advantage. Simply, they are not going to accept a ceasefire on those terms. Part of the point of Israel's insistence on a 3km exclusion zone is so they can detect the tunnels and destroy them.
The irony is that had they not enforced a blockade Hamas would probably never have thought to build them. They were first built to smuggle arms and consumer goods from Egypt, but that trade was shut down when Morsi's government was overthrown. Hamas recognised the potential and built tunnels for infiltration purposes. There are now loads of them.
Originally posted by Seitse [i]Hamas used children to help them dig numerous tunnels into Israel and
Egypt, a 2012 paper written for the Journal of Palestine Studies reported.
The paper, titled Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon: The Unintended Dynamics of
Israel's Siege says that little had been done to stop the phenomenon of
child labor during the digging of the tunnels by Hamas in Gaz ...[text shortened]... the above is not relevant and shall be ignored if finnegan
and his minion, dutchress69, say so.
Not to mention that Hamas siphoned off all the concrete and cement used to build these tunnels from Israeli shipments to Gaza meant to rebuild the hospitals and schools after the last go-round. Hamas itself is a far greater danger to Gaza children than Israel ever was.
Originally posted by Suzianne Not to mention that Hamas siphoned off all the concrete and cement used to build these tunnels from Israeli shipments to Gaza meant to rebuild the hospitals and schools after the last go-round. Hamas itself is a far greater danger to Gaza children than Israel ever was.
really? can you cite evidence for how many Palestinians Hamas has killed either indirectly or directly so that we can make a comparison with the number of people the Israelis have murdered, displaced, made orphans, imprisoned, bombed etc with the complicit support of the government of the United states of America or can we take it that you will continue to slobber and drool your way through the forums.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie really? can you cite evidence for how many Palestinians Hamas has killed either indirectly or directly so that we can make a comparison with the number of people the Israelis have murdered, displaced, made orphans, imprisoned, bombed etc with the complicit support of the government of the United states of America or can we take it that you will continue to slobber and drool your way through the forums.
Robbie,
If you want an answer to your question, answer this question:
Who fired first?
Perhaps this question will help too:
Who decided to fight from among a civilian population and hide within that population?
If you want an answer to your question, answer this question:
Who fired first?
Perhaps this question will help too:
Who decided to fight from among a civilian population and hide within that population?
In 1948 during the War of Independence a significant fraction of the then population of Palestine were displaced by the forces which became the Israeli state and not allowed to return to their homes. From a Palestinian point of view the Israeli's fired first no matter who fired the first shot in the current round of fighting. I think that it is crucial to understand this point if you want any insight into what is happening now.
Originally posted by DeepThought In 1948 during the War of Independence a significant fraction of the then population of Palestine were displaced by the forces which became the Israeli state and not allowed to return to their homes. From a Palestinian point of view the Israeli's fired first no matter who fired the first shot in the current round of fighting. I think that it is crucial to understand this point if you want any insight into what is happening now.
So you are saying that the Palestinians are in a constant state of war because Israel fired first.
If you want an answer to your question, answer this question:
Who fired first?
Perhaps this question will help too:
Who decided to fight from among a civilian population and hide within that population?
Who decided to fight from among a civilian population and hide within that population?
Check a map of Gaza and tell us where you would line up your row of brightly uniformed Hamas regular forces to engage with the weapons they possess the IDF with the American financed weapons they possess. Look though pictures of the current level of destruction and explain how exactly you would advise anyone with the courage to resist such overwhelming force.
Originally posted by Eladar So you are saying that the Palestinians are in a constant state of war because Israel fired first.
Nice.
Of the 750000 Palestinian refugees in 1948, the many further refugees since up to today, and their children, a fraction may be described as engaged in militant action against the Israeli state, a minority have been allowed to start new lives in other countries, a large number remain stateless, often still in refugee camps, without the means to build acceptable lives. They are not in a constant state of war but a constant state of oppression by an Israeli state which controls their borders, all natural resources, all economic prospects, all avenues for political control of their destiny. In keeping with an apartheid system modelled on their South African allies, the Israeli state actively sustains its immediate neighbours in a condition of hopeless dependence.
Originally posted by DeepThought What I'm saying is that the current conflict cannot be understood outside of the context of the last 66 years of history, especially the start.
Given the history, do you see why they can't allow Israel to exist?
Originally posted by finnegan Of the 750000 Palestinian refugees in 1948, the many further refugees since up to today, and their children, a fraction may be described as engaged in militant action against the Israeli state, a minority have been allowed to start new lives in other countries, a large number remain stateless, often still in refugee camps, without the means to build accepta ...[text shortened]... Israeli state actively sustains its immediate neighbours in a condition of hopeless dependence.
As long as Hamas exists in Gaza, Israel can't allow arms to freely enter the region.
Originally posted by Eladar As long as Hamas exists in Gaza, Israel can't allow arms to freely enter the region.
Fine. The U K had similar views about the IRA. But like a million other Irish people I live happily in the U K and vote in English elections.
The UN accepts Israel needs security but condemns its targetting of civilians. Israel may dislike Palestinians but it may not neglect its duty as an occupying force in control of Gaza to meet the needs of the population. Their human rights are not conditional on licking IDF boots.
Originally posted by Eladar Given the history, do you see why they can't allow Israel to exist?
The PLO accepted Israel's right to exist as part of the Oslo accords. If the Israelis accepted the Palestinians' right to a state of their own then they would find their security situation easing. People with nothing have nothing to lose.
At least 160 children died digging tunnels for Hamas
31 Jul '14 11:59
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