02 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by ChronicLeakyI explained in several posts what the connection was in this particular case and under which (broad) circumstances. I don't think the connection is linear enough for me to describe a general rule that applies everywhere, to all possible actions, nor do I see why that's relevant when I did so for the subject at hand.
I don't think you're equating suicide and a day at the zoo by any means, but I still have no idea what the connection between ethics and your personal empathy is, in your opinion.
So I see the demand for a general rule that connects my ethics and my empathy as "fishing" for a line of argument that can only be a tangent. This is why I respond defensively. I've been accused of many things along this thread, including projections of my personal life and of implying things that I clearly did not. So maybe, just maybe, my vitriol and laconic answers are a reflection of that.
Originally posted by PalynkaPerhaps I missed the explanation of this connection. So far I've seen comments which explain, on one hand, why you don't necessarily empathise with certain motivations for committing suicide, and, unrelatedly that you don't think acting on these motivations is a good decision. I was asking if, in this instance, your ethical appraisal of suicide is related to your empathetic understanding. I am actually curious about this; the relationship between ethics and empathy is interesting to me. I'm just asking for an explanation in this specific case, but so far I haven't found one.
I explained in several posts what the connection was in this particular case and under which (broad) circumstances. I don't think the connection is linear enough for me to describe a general rule that applies everywhere, to all possible actions, nor do I see why that's relevant when I did so for the subject at hand.
So I see the demand for a general rule rsonal life. So maybe, just maybe, my vitriol and laconic answers are a reflection of that.
I'm not "fishing for a tangent". I'm wondering what your judgment of the decision to commit suicide ( "not a good decision" ) entails (since it does not entail labelling people "cowards" ). I'd also like to determine if your "understanding" of that decision under various circumstances (depression, painful terminal illness) plays a part in that judgment.
Frankly, there are plenty of valid criticisms to be made about how you're presenting your opinion. For example, an honest reader could reasonably conclude that you equate "depression" with "wallowing in self-misery".
On other occasions, you make sweeping statements about how "most people" with various conditions view them and act on them (ie apparently they "use them as excuses" ). I'll echo your statement from another part of this thread, and ask for a study about the excuse-making habits and life-changing efforts of most people. I could just as easily say that most people with mental illnesses, diagnosed or not, expend a large proportion of their time and ingenuity on mitigating the effects of those illnesses, ie they "TRY to changes their lives". As it stands, my claim is as well-substantiated as yours is, and yet you've expressed an opinion, very bluntly, on the basis of your claim.
Your first appearance in this thread was, I think, a personal attack on the original poster. Again, a reasonable person could wonder whether you are trying to get a rise out of people, possibly to justify any later "laconic" responses you feel like making.
I'm not going to make projections of your personal life, but it's possible that one of the things that people have inferred about you is that you have not suffered from depression. This could be based on the assumption that someone with direct experience of depression would make the kind of explicit distinction that Mimor did, between "not trying to significantly change their lives" and making many such failed attempts and eventually giving up, especially since a feature of depression for some sufferers is great difficulty in having the motivation to make such changes.
Of course that's not a valid inference about you, nor is this thread the place to make it. Such "projections of your personal life" are legitimately offensive, I agree, but I'm not sure why vitriol is a helpful response, especially when it inhibits clarity, causes people to respond in misguided ways, and restarts the vitriol cycle.
I've no reason to believe that you haven't thought carefully about the opinions you're expressing, except for the fact that in my other interactions with you, you usually express your opinions in a way that exposes the careful thought that has gone into them, and it seems that for some reason you haven't done that here. I'm disinclined to believe that this can be attributed entirely to aggravation with the responses you've received, since even your initial posts lacked clarity and justification.
Perhaps like you, I'm a little offended by some stuff in this thread, and I should probably stop posting in it because of this. This is a shame, because it's not often a tongue-in-cheek General thread starts a serious discussion and gets bona fide compassion out of HoH 😛.
02 Mar 09
Originally posted by PalynkaI admit that this was an exaggeration on my side, and it probably wasn't a good idea, as you overreacted to my exaggeration and apparently couldn't focus on anything else I said in my posts. It still baffles me how you can lose respect for someone because they can't see a different way out of their misery than taking their own life. It still sounds to me like you see it as something people choose as an easy solution when they would also have the choice to do something that would make their life better. And your question "For example, what do you think of suicide as a response to the fever?" still makes it sound to me as if you believe that some people would choose suicide as something that is desirable even if they aren't in any kind of desperate situation. If I am misreading you again, please explain it better to me. I am not trying to read something into your words, I am trying to understand something that doesn't make sense to me.
When people read what they want and not what's there, I lose all will to explain myself. I make it sound like fun? Really?
03 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by NordlysYes, I think some make the wrong choice. Not because they think suicide is easy or fun, but because they underestimate their own ability to change their lives. So it's not about seeing suicide as easy, but in seeing the alternative as an irreversible condition.
I admit that this was an exaggeration on my side, and it probably wasn't a good idea, as you overreacted to my exaggeration and apparently couldn't focus on anything else I said in my posts. It still baffles me how you can lose respect for someone because they can't see a different way out of their misery than taking their own life. It still sounds to me lik thing into your words, I am trying to understand something that doesn't make sense to me.
03 Mar 09
Originally posted by black beetleI see your point. Without a body to give you substance, you can
I see my body as a tool; if this tool of mine works not anymore the way I want in order to have a qualitative life as I understand it, and if this body becomes a jail, I feel free to destroy it and brake free😵
03 Mar 09
TWO GLASSES OF WINE:
When things in your life seem almost too much to handle, when 24
hours in a day are not enough,
remember the mayonnaise jar and the 2 glasses of wine...
A professor stood before his philosophy class and had some items in
front of him. When the class began, wordlessly, he picked up a very
large and empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with golf
balls.
He then asked the students if the jar was full. They agreed that it
was.
The professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into
the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles rolled into the open
areas between the golf balls. He then asked the students again if
the jar was full.
They agreed it was.
The professor next picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar.
Of course, the sand filled up everything else. He asked once more if
the jar was full. The students responded with a unanimous "yes."
The professor then produced two glasses of wine from under the table
and poured the entire contents into the jar, effectively filling the
empty space between the sand. The students laughed.
"Now," said the professor, as the laughter subsided, "I want you to
recognize that this jar represents your life...
The golf balls are the important things; your family, your children,
your health, your friends, and your favorite passions; things that
if everything else was lost and only they remained, your life would
still be full.
The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your
house, and your car.
The sand is everything else; the small stuff.
"If you put the sand into the jar first" he continued, "there is no
room for the pebbles or the golf balls. The same goes for life. If
you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, you will
never have room for the things that are important to you.
Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness.
Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. Take
your partner out to dinner. Play another 18 holes. Do one more run
down the ski slopes.
There will always be time to clean the house and fix the disposal.
Take care of the golf balls first; the things that really matter.
Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."
One of the students raised her hand and inquired what the wine
represented.
The professor smiled. "I'm glad you asked. It just goes to show you
that no matter how full your life may seem, there's always room for
a couple of glasses of wine with a friend."
Share this with some friends. I just did....
03 Mar 09
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou are not what you think -sure thing;
"Our life is what our thoughts make it." - Marcus Aurelius
Note: Not our hurt feelings, jealousies, guilt trips, prestigious jobs, early disappointments or nickname masks. We are what we think.
Your mind conducts your Thought. Your mind cannot get silent, so this seemingly endless string of thoughts it gives you the false impression that your mind Is yourself. No!
When there is Silence there is not Mind. There is not Mind -there is just Thought. Your thoughts are brought up by your mind so fast one after the other ad infinitum that you cannot notice the interval between each thought of your Mind. Yet there is always an interval.
You are these intervals😵
03 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by PalynkaWell, at least we agree on one thing - that it's a wrong choice. But I see this as a result of an inability to see or implement alternatives due to their depression, and therefore it wouldn't cause me to lose respect for them any more than I would lose respect for someone who can't get up because of physical illness.
Yes, I think some make the wrong choice. Not because they think suicide is easy or fun, but because they underestimate their own ability to change their lives. So it's not about seeing suicide as easy, but in seeing the alternative as an irreversible condition.
03 Mar 09
2 edits
Originally posted by PalynkaI think you might be underestimating their inability to think clearly and rationally while depressed and the power that feeling devastated and overwhelmed can have. They feel out of control and they are searching for something they can control. They make a choice, do they want to participate in a life they no longer enjoy or participate in death which seems like just an extension of oversleeping which is also an escape on life. They are looking for comfort they are having a hard time finding in this non caring World with little sympathy.
Yes, I think some make the wrong choice. Not because they think suicide is easy or fun, but because they underestimate their own ability to change their lives. So it's not about seeing suicide as easy, but in seeing the alternative as an irreversible condition.
While it might be the wrong choice, to them they see it as the only choice because they have become exhausted in finding a solution.
04 Mar 09
Originally posted by cashthetrashFor some, believe it or not, there is 'no solution'.
I think you might be underestimating their inability to think clearly and rationally while depressed and the power that feeling devastated and overwhelmed can have. They feel out of control and they are searching for something they can control. They make a choice, do they want to participate in a life they no longer enjoy or participate in death which s ...[text shortened]... to them they see it as the only choice because they have become exhausted in finding a solution.
That is one of the hardest things in life I had to grasp. I still feel it so difficult to believe. And this I am talking from experience on a real level. I am talking intimately of anorexia. I don't want this to open up another extension of this thread, but I do mention the mental state I saw somebody diminish to through this disease. But then I was told that I had seen no diminishing of mental state - what I saw was the manifestation of the ever present state in all its entirety.
When I say 'no solution' I mean that top psychologists and psychiatrists actually told me there was no hope. i.e. I should stop living in the hope that she was going to live. They told me to accept that some people just don't want to live. Some people lose the will to live, and will not engage in life anymore, no matter how much expert help is offered. If they 'choose' not to engage then that is their choice, and it can be a concious choice at that! And some people do 'choose' not to engage. I found this very difficult to accept. I could not believe that somebody would lose the will to live - whilst still living with a chance of full recuperation (that is an assumption on my part of course, because I am no psychiatrist - therefore I have no knowledge that recuperation, as I perceived it, was not in this person's life or agenda.)
The 'experts' told me this is the case. We are, as humans, all different and there are examples of every human kind. Those examples include people who don't have a will to live or develop a will to die. Alikened to being different in character or even sexual deviation. We find it difficult to believe but there are such people who have no will to live. That is one of the most difficult things we can ever accept, because we perceive it as 'normal' to 'have' a will to live.
So on that basis that is why I write that for some there is 'no solution'.
I personally, however, still believe it is a form of mental illness. I CAN'T accept that not having a will to live can develop into a 'normal' condition that the 'experts' talked about, but then non of us can perceive a universe that has no boundary - our brain won't let us!
So sometimes we have to accept that there are things we cannot accept, or understand, purely because of who 'we' are, and not because it is what we have "assumed to be true because we really have no idea!"
04 Mar 09
Originally posted by mikelomSuicide is the most selfish thing one can do. Not to mention that breaking that Commandment will guarantee a one way trip to Hades.
For some, believe it or not, there is 'no solution'.
That is one of the hardest things in life I had to grasp. I still feel it so difficult to believe. And this I am talking from experience on a real level. I am talking intimately of anorexia. I don't want this to open up another extension of this thread, but I do mention the mental state I saw somebody d ...[text shortened]... what we have "assumed to be true because we really have no idea!"
There is ALWAYS a solution that is better than suicide, unless you are caught behind enemy lines.