Abiogenesis, evolution and morality

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Don't have a time machine unfortunately, but I'd advice you to take a trip to Scotland for a quick peek at the distant past.

Am currently banned from entering Scotland. (Long story).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I'm just glad I didn't mention my fresh dodo eggs.

If you had, you would be dead as a .....

Originally posted by sonship
If you look at the post, you'll see that my question was an afterthought.
I said, it was mentioned - about fictional gods. What do you think about that point Knobs?

It was just conversational.
Don't feel picked on because I asked you and not whoever first mentioned fictitious gods. (Well, maybe a little picked on. You are an atheist).

As an atheist it stands to reason all Gods are fictional.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
As an atheist it stands to reason all Gods are fictional.

Well, I don't think it "stands to reason" that God is fictional, at all.

I think you are utilizing the "reason" that God bestowed upon human beings to have in the first place. I think you're arguing against the One who gave you the ability to argue at all.

Otherwise, I have to imagine that the ability to "reason" somehow was produced from material entities from a huge amount of time and many trillions "lucky" accidents. I don't have enough faith to believe that.

I don't think it stands to reason that the function of a reasoning human mind arose from dust, dirt, and mud, and that totally without a plan or purposing Designer.

And to the question at hand about Abiogenesis, evolution and morality to think a moral law of good and bad conduct was sourced in atoms, is harder for me to believe than an Uncreated Divine Person creating man in the image and likeness of God.

Originally posted by sonship
Well, I don't think it "stands to reason" that God is fictional, at all.

I think you are utilizing the "reason" that God bestowed upon human beings to have in the first place. I think you're arguing against the One who gave you the ability to argue at all.

Otherwise, I have to imagine that the ability to "reason" somehow was produced from ma ...[text shortened]... for me to believe than an Uncreated Divine Person creating man in the image and likeness of God.

Think about it, higher education cannot tell the difference between a boy and girl, or a man
or woman any more when they are right in front of them, and you think their reasoning can
be trusted about events that may have occurred millions or billions or years ago?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Think about it, higher education cannot tell the difference between a boy and girl, or a man or woman any more when they are right in front of them, and you think their reasoning can be trusted about events that may have occurred millions or billions or years ago?

You keep repeating that without realizing that it reflects negatively on your own reasoning ability rather than on higher education.

Originally posted by sonship
Otherwise, I have to imagine that the ability to "reason" somehow was produced from material entities from a huge amount of time and many trillions "lucky" accidents. I don't have enough faith to believe that.

If you had ever used your reasoning ability to learn a bit of science, you wouldn't need faith, you would actually understand it. As it stands you clearly don't understand it, and your lack of faith is due to ignorance.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If you had ever used your reasoning ability to learn a bit of science, you wouldn't need faith, you would actually understand it. As it stands you clearly don't understand it, and your lack of faith is due to ignorance.

Your ad hom means nothing to me.
Lack of reasoning or lack of science education is not my problem in this matter, though I don't mind increasing in either, and do exercise in those areas.

My skepticism about evolution from matter to thought involves not wanting to commit a category fallacy. Thoughts and atoms do not occupied the same category of things.

Moral commands and molecules do not occupy the same category of things.
Don't bother telling me what you are not saying.

Originally posted by sonship
Your ad hom means nothing to me.

Why, did you fail to understand it?

Lack of reasoning or lack of science education is not my problem in this matter,
It is clear that you don't understand evolution. Your statements about it in the post I responded to demonstrated that without a doubt. Therefore your lack of faith that something could have happened via evolution can clearly be entirely attributed to your lack of knowledge in the subject area. You are quite justified to lack faith on a topic you are ignorant of, you are not so justified to think your lack of faith is a good argument for it being wrong.

I, for example have no idea how the universe started. I am totally ignorant of it. I do not have enough faith to think the universe was created from an egg layed by a golden dragon. This is however not a good argument that it was created in some other way, or even a good argument that it wasn't created from an egg layed by a golden dragon. It merely shows my utter ignorance. Nothing more.

My skepticism about evolution from matter to thought involves not wanting to commit a category fallacy.
A good eduction on the subject would cure your scepticism.

Thoughts and atoms do not occupied the same category of things.
I agree. Your conclusion however does not follow.

Originally posted by sonship
Well, I don't think it "stands to reason" that God is fictional, at all.

I think you are utilizing the "reason" that God bestowed upon human beings to have in the first place. I think you're arguing against the One who gave you the ability to argue at all.

Otherwise, I have to imagine that the ability to "reason" somehow was produced from ma ...[text shortened]... for me to believe than an Uncreated Divine Person creating man in the image and likeness of God.

Well of course you disagree with me, you're a theist.

Now back to the YouTube video you posted. You requested people look at it which twhitehead did, he asked you some questions about the video which you seemed to ignore. Maybe you could have a stab at answering them?

Originally posted by sonship
Well, I don't think it "stands to reason" that God is fictional, at all.

I think you are utilizing the "reason" that God bestowed upon human beings to have in the first place. I think you're arguing against the One who gave you the ability to argue at all.

Otherwise, I have to imagine that the ability to "reason" somehow was produced from ma ...[text shortened]... for me to believe than an Uncreated Divine Person creating man in the image and likeness of God.

The properties of a piece of wood depend in a convoluted way on the myriad interactions between its trillions of constituent parts - one can not trivially extrapolate from the properties of atoms or even the molecules which constitute a piece of wood what the structural properties of wood are. Do you have enough faith to believe this?

Originally posted by KellyJay

Think about it, higher education cannot tell the difference between a boy and girl, or a man or woman any more when they are right in front of them, and you think their reasoning can be trusted about events that may have occurred millions or billions or years ago?

I was taught that XX chromosomes make one a female and XY chromosomes make one a male.

Regardless how you cut up your body, take hormone injections, or surgically sculpt your skin and bones, the chromosomes (either XX or XY) determine sex.

As we move into the 21rst Century I think Christians must remember that Christ loves these people who desire a sex change also. Jesus lived and died and rose for their salvation as well.

Am I right?

Originally posted by sonship

Think about it, higher education cannot tell the difference between a boy and girl, or a man or woman any more when they are right in front of them, and you think their reasoning can be trusted about events that may have occurred millions or billions or years ago?

I was taught that XX chromosomes make one a female and XY chromosomes make ...[text shortened]... a sex change also. Jesus lived and died and rose for their salvation as well.

Am I right?

There are many people who do not have unambiguously either XX or XY.

Wikipedia:

Humans, as well as some other organisms, can have a chromosomal arrangement that is contrary to their phenotypic sex; for example, XX males or XY females (see androgen insensitivity syndrome). Additionally, an abnormal number of sex chromosomes (aneuploidy) may be present, such as Turner's syndrome, in which a single X chromosome is present, and Klinefelter's syndrome, in which two X chromosomes and a Y chromosome are present, XYY syndrome and XXYY syndrome.[1] Other less common chromosomal arrangements include: triple X syndrome, 48, XXXX, and 49, XXXXX.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
The properties of a piece of wood depend in a convoluted way on the myriad interactions between its trillions of constituent parts - one can not trivially extrapolate from the properties of atoms or even the molecules which constitute a piece of wood what the structural properties of wood are. Do you have enough faith to believe this?

The properties of a piece of wood depend in a convoluted way on the myriad interactions between its trillions of constituent parts - one can not trivially extrapolate from the properties of atoms or even the molecules which constitute a piece of wood what the structural properties of wood are. Do you have enough faith to believe this?

I can see interactions of many constituent parts going into the physical properties of a piece of wood.

I don't think there is a noble atom or a kind molecule or a faithful chemical combination or loving interaction of material elements in the same way in the moral realm.

Originally posted by sonship

I can see interactions of many constituent parts going into the physical properties of a piece of wood.

I don't think there is a noble atom or a kind molecule or a faithful chemical combination or loving interaction of material elements in the same way in the moral realm.

I see. Why is it plausible to you that a piece of wood is much more than the sum of its parts, yet it is unfathomable for you that a nervous system is much more than the sum of its parts?