For RJHinds-yes Pre:rapture

Originally posted by sonship
Now you are moving closer to what I have said.

[b] And those of us that are watching for His coming will not be caught unprepared and that day will not come on us as a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4).

The exhortation of 1 Thess 5:4 comes short of being a guarantee that all the saints will not be caught unprepared otherwise ...[text shortened]... ously.

So it is a promise of what we are in Christ followed by an exhortation to COOPERATE.[/b]

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe it is your reading comprehension of what I posted that is flawed. I said nothing like what you claim I said. Your imagination seems to have gone wild.

Whether the rapture of the believers comes before or after the great tribulation does not need to be something that should divide us in the body of Christ. Just believe as I tell you and everything will be fine. 😀

Maybe it is your reading comprehension of what I posted that is flawed. I said nothing like what you claim I said. Your imagination seems to have gone wild.

Whether the rapture of the believers comes before or after the great tribulation does not need to be something that should divide us in the body of Christ. Just believe as I tell you and everything will be fine.

All I would say about First Thessalonians 5:1 - 11 - that entire section is that brother Paul is saying:

"Here is our nature.
Here is what God ordained us to.
Therefore ... let us live in thus and such manner. "

That is the tone of the passage.
We should, as Christians, go ALONG with our nature bestowed upon us by God. We should, as Christians, go ALONG with what God has ordained us to.

Originally posted by sonship

Maybe it is your reading comprehension of what I posted that is flawed. I said nothing like what you claim I said. Your imagination seems to have gone wild.

It is very possible that on a hasty morning, while eyes were tired, I did not read carefully a post someone wrote.

My apologies for any actual misunderstandings of purpose.
...[text shortened]... ut to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ..."

I will stop here.[/b]

"For God did not appoint us to wrath but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, ..."

When is the rapture - Jesus made it clear!

YouTube

http://affcrit.com/pdfs/2006/02/06_02_wr.pdf
The Rapture of the Saints (1)

http://affcrit.com/pdfs/2007/01/07_01_wr.pdf
The Rapture of the Saints (2)

http://affcrit.com/pdfs/2007/02/07_02_wr.pdf
The Rapture of the Saints (3)

I read the first two pages and the early church fathers quoted there believe the Christians are going through tribulation and Christ does not come for the saints until after the tribulation. That just agrees with what I am saying.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I read the first two pages and the early church fathers quoted there believe the Christians are going through tribulation and Christ does not come for the saints until after the tribulation. That just agrees with what I am saying.

The Man-child Signifying the Overcomers
throughout History

Verse 5 says, “She brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.” In the Bible, woman signifies the weaker vessel, and man, the stronger one (1 Pet. 3:7). According to this principle, the man-child signifies the stronger part of God’s people. On the one hand, he is fully a part of her, having been hidden within her and nourished by her. On the other hand, he is distinguished from her by reason of his strength. This matches the principle of the overcomers in Revelation 2 and 3. From among all of God’s people in the seven churches, the overcomers are those who maintain their first love for Christ and partake of Him as their life supply (2:4, 7), are faithful even unto death (vv. 10-11), and are not drawn away by empty teachings but rather are nourished by Him in the most private and intimate way (“hidden manna” ) to be transformed for His building (“white stone” and “a new name”; vv. 14-15, 17). The overcomers are also those who refuse demonic and heretical teachings, keep the Lord’s works until the end (vv. 20, 24,26), and have a walk and living that are unspotted by death (3:1, 4). They serve the Lord by utilizing the power He gives them, keep His word, and do not deny His name (v. 8), and they also pay the price (“buy” ) to gain operating faith and the divine nature of God ( “gold” ), conduct that can be approved by the Lord (“white garments” ), and the anointing Spirit for spiritual sight (“eyesalve” ; v. 18).

Originally posted by sonship
Keep reading though.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] The Man-child Signifying the Overcomers
throughout History

Verse 5 says, “She brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod.” In the Bible, woman signifies the weaker vessel, and man, the stronger one (1 Pet. 3:7). According to this principle, the man-child signifies the stronger part of God’s ...[text shortened]... (“white garments” ), and the anointing Spirit for spiritual sight (“eyesalve” ; v. 18).

[/b]

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am not a fast reader, like my genius son, and I don't like to do a lot of reading. Do you have a Youtube video you can refer me too?

Works Cited
Chafer, Lewis Sperry. “Dispensationalism.”
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Coxe, A. Cleveland. Footnotes.
The Ante-Nicene Fathers.
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Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson. Vol. 4. Grand
Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979.

Darby, J. N.
The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby.
Ed. William
Kelly. 34 vols. Sunbury: Believers Bookshelf, 1971-1972.

Frost, Henry W.
Matthew Twenty-four and the Revelation.
New
York: Oxford UP, 1924.

Govett, Robert.
Entrance into the Kingdom.
Hayesville:
Schoettle, 2001.
———.

Govett on Revelation.
Vol. 2. Miami Springs: Conley &
Schoettle, 1981.
———.

Kingdom Studies.
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The Twofoldness of Divine Truth.
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Hippolytus. “Treatise on Christ and Antichrist.”

The Ante-
Nicene Fathers.
Ed. Alexander Roberts and James
Donaldson. Vol. 5. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978.

Irenaeus. “Against Heresies.”
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Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson. Vol. 1. Grand
Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979.

Ladd, George Eldon.
The Blessed Hope.
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Eerdmans, 1956.
———.

Crucial Questions about the Kingdom of God.
Grand
Rapids: Eerdmans, 1952.

Lang, George H.
Firstfruits and Harvest.
Miami Springs:
Conley & Schoettle, 1985.
———.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ.
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Testament. Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1991.
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Life-study of Revelation.
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Nee, Watchman.
The Collected Works of Watchman Nee.
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The Glorious Church.
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The Orthodoxy of the Church.
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Newton, Benjamin Wills.
Thoughts on the Apocalypse.
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Rapture.
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Pember, G. H.
The Antichrist, Babylon, and the Coming of the
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Reiter, Richard R., Paul D. Feinberg, Gleason L. Archer, and
Douglas J. Moo.
The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulational?
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Ryrie, Charles Caldwell.
The Basis of the Premillennial Faith.
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Dispensationalism.
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What You Should Know about the Rapture.
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Scofield, C. I. The Scofield Reference Bible. New York: Oxford
UP, 1945.

Smith, Wilbur M.
A Preliminary Bibliography for the Study of
Biblical Prophecy.
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Originally posted by sonship
I would encourage anyone who really wants the thorough examination of the subject to take the time to READ the articles, looking up as many verses for themselves as they can.

This is what I have done for years. And I don't feel one has to hurry.


Notice the bibliography of the just the first article

[quote] Works Cited
Chafer, Lewis ...[text shortened]... king for things to disagree with, I think one should take the time to study the articles.

YouTube

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days ..." whatever ... does not prove that there is no pre-tribulation rapture of those who fulfill the Lord's conditions in Luke 21:34 and Rev. 3:10.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days ..." whatever ... had absolutely ZERO effect on the corporate man-child being selected from the Woman to be raptured before the one thousands two hundred and sixty days (Rev. 12:5-12)

The 144,000 from the tribes of Israel (ch.7) are set in contrast to the 144,000 firstfruits from the church (ch. 14) :

Revelation 14 is another significant chapter, showing how God in His wisdom, righteousness, and sovereignty will deal with all the people on earth in the proper way and at the proper time during the great tribulation. (Israel is not dealt with in this chapter, because it has already been covered in chapter 7 with the vision of the sealing of the one hundred and forty-four thousand chosen Israelites.) Verse 1 of chapter 14 says, “I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.” The one hundred and forty-four thousand in chapter 14 is in contrast to the one hundred and forty-four thousand in chapter 7 (Nee,Works16:124-125; Govett,Revelation
266-268). First, the group mentioned in 7:4 is composed of those selected from “every tribe of the sons of Israel,” but the group in chapter 14 is “purchased from the earth” and “purchased from among men” (vv. 3-4). Those in chapter 7 are marked out with the “seal of the living God” (v. 2), but those in chapter 14 have the name of the Lamb and the name of His Father written on their foreheads (v. 1). This corresponds to the promise to the overcomers in the church in Philadelphia that Christ will write upon them the name of His God (3:12). Thus, the one hundred and forty-four thousand in chapter 14 are taken from the church.