08 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipIsn't revelation 14 after the tribulation too?
The 144,000 from the tribes of Israel [b](ch.7) are set in contrast to the 144,000 firstfruits from the church (ch. 14) :
[quote] Revelation 14 is another significant chapter, showing how God in His wisdom, righteousness, and sovereignty will deal with all the people on earth in the proper way and at the proper time during the great tribulatio ...[text shortened]... [/b] [my emphasis]
Affirmation and Critique
http://affcrit.com/pdfs/2006/02/06_02_wr.pdf[/b]
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08 Sep 14
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Originally posted by RJHindsOne might assume from going from chapter 13 on to chapter 14 that chronologically the rapture of the firstfruits is after the reign of Antichrist. Afterall, in chapter 13 we see him quite active in persecution.
Isn't revelation 14 after the tribulation too?
But chapter 14 seems to be a self contained view of the last days. Judging from the content's sequence.
1.) The firstfruits are seen raptured to heaven (vs. 1-5)
2.) The "Eternal Gospel" is preached from the angel to fear God the Creator, neutralizing the coming threat to worship Antichrist (vs.6-7)
3.) The fall of Religious Babylon as Antichrist puts down all worship, genuine or false and exalts himself above all religion, that he may be worshipped. (v. 8)
4.) The warning against the worship of Antichrist in the Great Tribulation (vs.9-12)
5.) The blessing of those martyred during that time (v.13)
6.) The rapture of the harvest of believers near the end of the Great Tribulation. (vs.14-16)
7.) The gathering of the grapes of God's wrath, the evildoers for Armageddon at the end of the Great Tribulation. (vs.17-20)
This chapter therefore is a self contained capsule of the major events from just before the start of the GT to its conclusion. It is concisely laid out specifically that we may see the various states of believers at the end times.
08 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipIn Christian eschatology, the post-tribulation rapture doctrine is the belief in a combined resurrection and rapture of all believers coming after the Great Tribulation.
One might assume from going from chapter 13 on to chapter 14 that chronologically the rapture of the [b]firstfruits is after the reign of Antichrist. Afterall, in chapter 13 we see him quite active in persecution.
But chapter 14 seems to be a self contained view of the last days. Judging from the content's sequence.
1.) The firstfruits are ...[text shortened]... oncisely laid out specifically that we may see the various states of believers at the end times.[/b]
Post-tribulationists believe that Christians will remain on the Earth through the three and a half year great tribulation period. This period starts at the Abomination of Desolation and ends at the Battle of Armageddon. They will be gathered by the angels to meet Christ in the air (raptured) at Christ's second coming immediately after the great tribulation just before the battle of Armageddon and then return with Him as Christ descends to the Earth, to usher in the Millennium (World to Come) on earth. This is usually understood as being in line with historic premillennialism.
Post-tribulationists broadly base their doctrine on the complementary concepts that a two phase pre-tribulation rapture is never mentioned explicitly in the Bible, and that the "whole counsel of Scripture" seems to clearly teach that the resurrection and rapture of the Church will be the result of the visible, physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ to Earth and that Christians are to look and watch for that event.
Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 both mention the same individuals (Jesus, his angels) and the same events (Jesus coming, the trumpet of God, and the gathering of the elect) in the same order. The latter passage written by the Apostle Paul is seen as being based on the former because of the usage of "by the word of the Lord" in verse 15 and that they are talking about the same event, but the first passage is explicitly dated "after the Tribulation", and the second is where we get the term Rapture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-tribulation_rapture
Will Christians Go Through the Great Tribulation?
Since much of the Church believes God will deliver them prior to the Great Tribulation, many believers will be surprised when they find themselves being persecuted and killed for their faith. Their faith will be severely tested, since they may believe that God has abandoned them and that the prophecies of the rapture are not true. Under such circumstances, most believers will fall away and deny their faith to save their lives. Jesus, in fact, made just such a prophecy:
"And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.... "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
(Matthew 24:10, 13)
If you are a Christian, be prepared to die for your faith. Even your fellow "brothers" will deliver you to the authorities to avoid their own deaths. If you are not willing to die for what you believe, you will deny your faith when threatened with death. Be aware of what Jesus said about those who seek to save their lives:
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
(Matthew 16:25)
Many Christians are looking forward to the return of Christ, which will, indeed, be a glorious event. However, the time just preceding the end will not be pleasant for Christians. The watchful Christian should be prepared to join his fellow brothers under the alter of souls of those who will die "because of the testimony which they had maintained."
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/tribulation.html
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09 Sep 14
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Originally posted by RJHinds
In Christian eschatology, the post-tribulation rapture doctrine is the belief in a combined resurrection and rapture of all believers coming after the Great Tribulation.
I understand that. But what First Thessalonians 4:17 SAYS is the rapture at the last trumpet is of those "who are living, who are left remaining."
You have to admit that at least the implication could be that some were living but were NOT left remaining because they were already raptured.
Now if this were an interpretation in isolation then it might be suspect. But since we also have verses like Luke 21:36; Rev, 3:10; Revelation 12 and Revelation 14 it makes perfect sense. The Holy Spirit may be warning us that some living were taken pre-tribulation.
If Paul simply meant that those who were living would be taken, he could just have STOPPED at saying - "Then we who are living ...". The Holy Spirit did not let him stop there, twice. So we have as the inspired oracles of God -
" ... that we who are living, who are left remaining unto the coming of the Lord ..."(v.15)
" Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds." (v.17)
I think we ignore this at our own peril.
Post-tribulationists believe that Christians will remain on the Earth through the three and a half year great tribulation period.
Selective rapture based on facts such as the firstfruits and the man-child believe the same.
The error of the two opposite schools of thought - pre-trib and post-trib is that they both assume the whole church must be raptured at once, and at the same time.
This is pure assumption which the warnings do not concur always concur with.
This period starts at the Abomination of Desolation and ends at the Battle of Armageddon. They will be gathered by the angels to meet Christ in the air (raptured) at Christ's second coming immediately after the great tribulation just before the battle of Armageddon and then return with Him as Christ descends to the Earth, to usher in the Millennium (World to Come) on earth. This is usually understood as being in line with historic premillennialism.
That is general though.
It lacks some detail that the New Testament includes.
The Harvest, as you said, is indeed raptured before the grapes of wrath are crushed at Armaggeddon in Revelation 14:17-20). But in the same chapter the Firstfruits are seen not in the air but in heaven before the rapture of the Harvest (Rev. 14:1-20)[/b]
The terms Firstfruits and Harvest are significant in terms of TIME. If they all ripened together then there would be NO NEED for the Lord to specify early ripening Firstfruits and latter ripening Harvest.
The very typology implies a difference in TIMING as to development, maturity, growth.
Post-tribulationists broadly base their doctrine on the complementary concepts that a two phase pre-tribulation rapture is never mentioned explicitly in the Bible, and that the "whole counsel of Scripture" seems to clearly teach that the resurrection and rapture of the Church will be the result of the visible, physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ to Earth and that Christians are to look and watch for that event.
That is simply not completely true at all.
The warning to the church in Sardis implies that as a discipline, Jesus will come upon some unaware when they LEAST expect.
"Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die; for I have none of your works completed before My God.
Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you." (Rev. 3:2-3)
Did you see that? "YOU SHALL BY NO MEANS ... KNOW at what hour I will come upon you."
The words "BY NO MEANS" is pretty strong. It suggests the possibility of TOTAL SURPRISE.
He could come for us before I finish typing this sentence sentence. No bloody moon, No darkened sun, no evident Antichrist over the world. He could come before the great tribulation not when we MOST expect it but when we LEAST expect it.
Most of the warnings about His coming are in this tone.
But it stands to reason, that God in His foreknowledge, knowing that only a remnant will be watching for Him, includes a promise that those alive and left remaining will not fail also to be taken.
Think about it.
Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 both mention the same individuals (Jesus, his angels) and the same events (Jesus coming, the trumpet of God, and the gathering of the elect) in the same order. The latter passage written by the Apostle Paul is seen as being based on the former because of the usage of "by the word of the Lord" in verse 15 and that they are talking about the same event, but the first passage is explicitly dated "after the Tribulation", and the second is where we get the term Rapture.
Prophecy usually only gives us the tip of the iceberg. When all really comes down to occuring there is an avalanche of unspoken details, which we may have not anticipated, that accompany the scant details He told us.
So, I recognize that you have the last trumpet in the Thessalonian passage and a trumpet is the Matthew 24:31. Can the Son of God do more than ONE thing at a time?
Since He has a number of promises to keep, He can start their fulfillment at about the same time. It is clear to me that the gathering He speaks of in Matthew 24:31 is that gathering of the scattered elect of Israel according to all the promises I supplied in the OT that God would so do.
That around the same time He fulfill promises to the church is not an obstacle to my belief. The emphasis up to verse 31 is to the disciples as constituents of the nation of Israel.
Afterall there questions included concerns of the Messianic hopes for Israel. He has just talked about the destruction of the magnificient Jewish temple (Matt. 24:1,2).
"Do you see all these things [pertaining to Israel Davidic glory] ? Truly I say to you, There shall by no means be left here a stone, which shall not be thrown down." (v.2)
To their curiousity Jesus has the dual job of informing them of their national relationship to His coming (verses 4 - 31) and their church relationship to His coming (verses 32 - chapter 25:30).
And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age?
Jesus has a dual responsibility to perform. That is prophesy of His coming in relation to the nation of Israel and prophesy of His coming in relation to the new covenant church.
Bible students who fail to discern this two-fold approach to the prophetic utterances of Matthew 25-25 or the dual status of the questioning disciples as both Israelites and Christians of the church, I think have confusion about the prophesies.
Selective rapture does not mean that those who failed to be taken early, will be total defeated ones. By no means is this the case. In the Old Testament the typology of the rapture of Elijah and the remaining of Elisha to be mocked by the world, may be instructive of this.
When Elijah was raptured, Elisha recieved a double portion of his spirit. And the mantle of Elijah fell to Elisha. Elisha had an impressive career. Yet he was also mocked -
"Go up thou baldhead. Go up thou baldhead" cried some of the mocking worldly ones.
The unbelieving mockers mocked Elisha jeering at him that he had not been caught up to heaven as Elijah had been.
When the majority of the church is left after the early secret rapture, many of the world will react with mocking - "Why weren't you taken up too ? Go up with the rest of the Christians that were taken then !"
And Antichrist will mock those who previously were raptured, not to the air, but to the third heavens to be with God in His heavenly temple -
"And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority was given to him to act for forty two months.
And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, which tabernacle in heaven." (Rev. 13:5,6)
Other versions on Rev. 13:5
English Standard Version
It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
New American Standard Bible
And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
King James Bible
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He began to speak blasphemies against God: to blaspheme His name and His dwelling--those who dwell in heaven.
International Standard Version
It uttered blasphemies against God, against his name, and against his residence, that is, against those who are living in heaven.
NET Bible
So the beast opened his mouth to blaspheme against God--to blaspheme both his name and his dwelling place, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
The church will come out glorious. But it will be no picnic. Antichrist will have authority to overcome the saints.
"And permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them ...;"
09 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipIn Christian eschatology, the post-tribulation rapture doctrine is the belief in a combined resurrection and rapture of all believers coming after the Great Tribulation.
I understand that. But what [b]First Thessalonians 4:17 SAYS is the rapture at the last trumpet is of those "who are living, who are left remaining."
...[text shortened]... d permission was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them ...;" [/b][/b]
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB)
It is only the believers that remain alive at the coming of the Lord after going through the great tribulation that will be caught up (raptured). The others that are living are all the unbelievers that will go through the hour of trial (the judgment and wrath of God and Christ) at His coming. And those believers that are asleep (dead) will be raised first as it says. There is no other rapture or any other catching up of believers mentioned from the time of Christ in the New Testament.
The apostle Paul did not stop with "we who are living" twice, because he wanted to make it clear he was referring to those believers that had gone through the Great Tribulation or wrath of Satan before the coming of the Lord, but were not killed and remained alive and would be caught up (raptured) to be with Christ and the others that had died and already raised before them.
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11 Sep 14
Originally posted by RJHinds
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB)
It is only the believers that remain alive at the coming of the Lord after going through the great tribulation that will be caught up (raptured). The others that are living are all the unbelievers that will go through the hour of trial (the judgment and wrath of God and Christ) at His coming. And those believers that are asleep (dead) will be raised first as it says. There is no other rapture or any other catching up of believers mentioned from the time of Christ in the New Testament.
Firstfruits and Harvest did not magically disappear from my Bible when you wrote this grandstanding opinion.
Did Firstfruits and Harvest suddenly vanish from your Bible just now ?
The apostle Paul did not stop with "we who are living" twice, because he wanted to make it clear he was referring to those believers that had gone through the Great Tribulation or wrath of Satan before the coming of the Lord, but were not killed and remained alive and would be caught up (raptured) to be with Christ and the others that had died and already raised before them.
Funny - Firstfruits and Harvest STILL did not suddenly disappear from my New Testament.
Did they vanish from yours ?
More reasons why Harvest ONLY post tribulation rapture should not be trusted.
1.) Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would be no need for us to be warned to WATCH and WAIT and be VIGILANT and PREPARED.
Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half years' period, we could live sinfully - walking in the flesh and in the natural man up to
Such a scheme of getting the most out of NOT watching goes against the very principle of Scripture and human responsibility.
2.) Were there to be a Harvest ONLY post tribulation rapture, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but a waiting for the Antichrist.
Since he MUST come first, Christians would simply be watching for Antichrist to come. This too violates a principle of Christ being the object of our watching.
3.) "Behold, I come as a thief" should be taken more seriously.
If you knew that you had three years five month and twenty-nine days and then a thief was coming, this is the coming of a firm appointment and not the coming like a thief.
11 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipYou seem to forget that "Behold, I come as a thief" is for those that are not watchful. For those that understand and are watchful, His coming does not catch us unaware.
[quote] (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 NASB)
It is only the believers that remain alive at the coming of the Lord after going through the great tribulation that will be caught up (raptured). The others that are living are all the unbelievers that will go through the hour of trial (the judgment and wrath of God and Christ) at His coming. And those believers tha ...[text shortened]... en a thief was coming, this is the coming of a firm appointment and not the coming like a thief.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(1 Thessalonians 5:4-6)
Perhaps you do not understand "firstfruits" and "harvest" either.
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11 Sep 14
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Originally posted by RJHinds
You seem to forget that "Behold, I come as a thief" is for those that are not watchful. For those that understand and are watchful, His coming does not catch us unaware.
Are you ALWAYS watchful for the Lord to come on you?
Are you NEVER in an attitude of being unaware of His possible coming while you are doing some deed, speaking some word, engaging in some activity ?
"Behold, I come as a thief" is for the disciples.
You are saying DISCIPLES by nature CANNOT be unwatchful.
Oh yea ?
You yourself, and me too, sometimes say, if not silently to ourselves - "My Lord is delaying His coming."
Sure you do! Don't lie to yourself.
So any theory that disciples AUTOMATICALLY are watchful for the Lord is a idealistic and naive delusion.
Look around at the Christian public.
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11 Sep 14
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RJHinds, you are confused about what IS with the church and what OUGHT to be with the church.
And that is why there is a secret, sudden, unannounced rapture which could take place at any time.
And that is why SOME will go up and SOME will not go up - not of merely human beings. I speak of SOME Christians.
12 Sep 14
Originally posted by sonshipI am being watchful when I read His word to understand the times and the seasons that I see coming about in the world today.You seem to forget that "Behold, I come as a thief" is for those that are not watchful. For those that understand and are watchful, His coming does not catch us unaware.
Are you ALWAYS watchful for the Lord to come on you?
Are you NEVER in an attitude of being unaware of His possible coming while you are doing some deed, speaking ...[text shortened]... chful for the Lord is a idealistic and naive delusion.
Look around at the Christian public.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
(Matthew 24:32-35 KJV)
12 Sep 14
3 edits
Originally posted by sonshipShow me were there is a secret unannounced rapture before the tribulation and the coming of the Lord.
RJHinds, you are confused about what IS with the church and what OUGHT to be with the church.
And that is why there is a secret, sudden, unannounced rapture which could take place at any time.
And that is why SOME will go up and SOME will not go up - not of merely human beings. I speak of SOME Christians.
I have shown you a sudden rapture AFTER the tribulation that is first announced with signs in the heavens and the trumpet of God.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Matthew 24:29-31)
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1 Corinthians 15:51-53 NASB)
It is no longer a secret to those that read the Holy Bible and pay attention to His word.
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13 Sep 14
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Originally posted by RJHindsUnless you retract your accusations against Witness Lee I have no burden to attempt to help you.
Show me were there is a secret unannounced rapture before the tribulation and the coming of the Lord.
I have shown you a sudden rapture AFTER the tribulation that is first announced with signs in the heavens and the trumpet of God.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Matthew 24:29-31)
[quote] Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all ...[text shortened]... SB)
It is no longer a secret to those that read the Holy Bible and pay attention to His word.
And you seem resolute to jump on the accusation bandwagon. So I don't feel to do anymore than shake off the dust from my shoes and move on.
We had some interesting exchanges. But I am not going to humor you any longer.
Stay with your "cult" accusation if you wish.
I sense no more obligation to clarify or attempt to help this kind of obstinate stubborness.
It will be decided at the judgment seat of Christ.
13 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipPlease do not be like the Jehovah's Witnesses and close your eyes and ears to critical truth from the Holy bible. Put your faith in Christ, not Witness Lee.
Unless you retract your accusations against Witness Lee I have no burden to attempt to help you.
And you seem resolute to jump on the accusation bandwagon. So I don't feel to do anymore than shake off the dust from my shoes and move on.
We had some interesting exchanges. But I am not going to humor you any longer.
Stay with your "cult" accusat ...[text shortened]... help this kind of obstinate stubborness.
It will be decided at the judgment seat of Christ.
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
(2 Timothy 4:1-5 NIV)