05 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayActually, I meant it in the best possible way, and certainly not nasty.
LOL, a back handed insult if I ever saw one. Sweet, but nasty.
Later!
Kelly
Fact is, I carried around with me for years and years a guilt feeling that I am SUPPOSED to believe YECism, but knew in my heart of hearts that it was nonsense.
If you look at my earlier posts on RHP (if they still exist) from around 2006 or so, you will see that I defended YEC and Noah's ark as fervently as you do now. "It is all part of the Gospel. Pull out one brick and the entire structure collapses!"
Not so. It was with huge relief that I could jettison the myths and allegories, but keep the core. Unlike, sad to say, what seems to have happened to sonhouse.
Go well!
05 Jul 14
Originally posted by CalJustI didn't think you meant it as nasty, but I took it as, "you believe great",
Actually, I meant it in the best possible way, and certainly not nasty.
Fact is, I carried around with me for years and years a guilt feeling that I am SUPPOSED to believe YECism, but knew in my heart of hearts that it was nonsense.
If you look at my earlier posts on RHP (if they still exist) from around 2006 or so, you will see that I defended YEC and ...[text shortened]... ies, but keep the core. Unlike, sad to say, what seems to have happened to sonhouse.
Go well!
but what you believe is stupid and as soon as you reject it you'll be good.
I don't have an issue with those that disagree with me thinking my
faith is stupid. I do not tell people I know the earth and universe is
thousands of years old, billions, or millions I do not know. Those that
make the claim they know can deal with the errors they may have.
You asked why God made the universe look old, your very question
assumes facts that may not be true, but that is the nature of faith.
Kelly
05 Jul 14
Originally posted by KellyJayNo, that is exactly NOT the nature of faith!
You asked why God made the universe look old, your very question
assumes facts that may not be true, but that is the nature of faith.
Kelly
The facts that I "assume to be true" are facts as everybody today understands them.
Granted, there are many, many things which we assume today until a better model that explains the data comes along, but then there are things that we assume today which are highly unlikely to be changed - and these require no faith.
For example:
1. Do you agree that we have been able to calculate, with remarkable accuracy and consistency, the speed of light? Do you agree that it is something like (if my memory does not fail me) 3 x 10^10 cm/sec?
2. Do you agree with the principle of the Doppler Effect (i.e. the sound of a high speed car driving past you changes pitch when it passes you). This phenomenon is proven daily and requires no faith.
3. Do you agree that light waves also are subject to the Doppler Effect, and hence exhibit what is known as Red Shift? No faith needed here.
These three facts together help us to date a light source. No faith, no Carbon dating, no hocus pocus.
FACT: The universe DOES appear to be some 18 billion years old.
If God created it in 6000 years, he HAD to have created it in a way that appears this old.
Again, for what reason? Playfulness, or a desire to confuse?
Yes, I agree with you that Faith is needed for things we cannot explain or understand - the virgin birth, the resurrection, to name but two. But you don't need faith for common sense matters, e.g. how to drive a car, whether to put jam on your bread or not. Or how far Alpha Centauri or the Crab Nebula is.
05 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by CalJustWe can be wrong about that which we are most sure about, it happens we
No, that is exactly NOT the nature of faith!
The facts that I "assume to be true" are facts as everybody today understands them.
Granted, there are many, many things which we assume today until a better model that explains the data comes along, but then there are things that we assume today which are highly unlikely to be changed - and these require n ...[text shortened]... a car, whether to put jam on your bread or not. Or how far Alpha Centauri or the Crab Nebula is.
are not always flawless in our interpretations. The world may not agree on
God, so they leave God out of every calculation, does that mean they are
correct just because the math may be right? If God created the universe a
very short time ago as we see it today with small changes to what is going
on around us, would the math still be the same with light, stars, and
distances and so on?
Your "no faith needed facts" assumes everything you believe is true about
the past is, you don't leave room to be wrong, so I guess in your mind it
isn't faith, for you its facts. That sounds more like dogma to me than the
most die hard pastors sermon I've ever heard.
Kelly
05 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayJust stop all religious talk just for a second:
We can be wrong about that which we are most sure about, it happens we
are not always flawless in our interpretations. The world may not agree on
God, so they leave God out of every calculation, does that mean they are
correct just because the math may be right? If God created the universe a
very short time ago as we see it today with small changes to w ...[text shortened]... That sounds more like dogma to me than the
most die hard pastors sermon I've ever heard.
Kelly
Do you believe we know today with reliable confidence what the speed of light is?
Simple yes or no - no sermonising please
05 Jul 14
Originally posted by KellyJayHow familiar are you with the Omphalos hypothesis?
If God created the universe a very short time ago as we see it today with small changes to what is going on around us, would the math still be the same with light, stars, and distances and so on?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis
05 Jul 14
Originally posted by CalJustCan you stop all the "science talk" and admit you could be wrong what
Just stop all religious talk just for a second:
Do you believe we know today with reliable confidence what the speed of light is?
Simple yes or no - no sermonising please
you are claiming as facts about the past may be wrong? Looking for
equal honesty.
Kelly
05 Jul 14
4 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayIn that case, do you also understand the Doppler Effect?
Yes
If YES, then the distance to a light source can be calculated with simple High School maths.
This is not "science talk", and yes, I am ready to admit that I can be and am often wrong. But not when one deals with 2 + 2 = 4. That is why I keep coming back to simple things that ARE known, e.g. the speed of light, from which we calculation distances to the stars. Not much doubt left there. And not much faith needed.
05 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by CalJustNo one I know disputes the distance of the stars, only how long they have
In that case, do you also understand the Doppler Effect?
If YES, then the distance to a light source can be calculated with simple High School maths.
This is not "science talk", and yes, I am ready to admit that I can be and am often wrong. But not when one deals with 2 + 2 = 4. That is why I keep coming back to simple things that ARE known, e.g. the ...[text shortened]... ich we calculation distances to the stars. Not much doubt left there. And not much faith needed.
been there, which are two different things.
Kelly
05 Jul 14
Originally posted by KellyJayDid the Bible say that God created the universe a short time ago?
We can be wrong about that which we are most sure about, it happens we
are not always flawless in our interpretations. The world may not agree on
God, so they leave God out of every calculation, does that mean they are
correct just because the math may be right? If God created the universe a
very short time ago as we see it today with small changes to w ...[text shortened]... That sounds more like dogma to me than the
most die hard pastors sermon I've ever heard.
Kelly
06 Jul 14
Originally posted by KellyJayThis is gold.
No one I know disputes the distance of the stars, only how long they have
been there, which are two different things.
Kelly
You are willing to concede that Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away.
But believe that galaxy has existed for ... how long exactly? A few thousand years?