No pre-tribulaion rapture

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree with you, if you die before any of those three, who cares?
I've heard so may different things about what people believe with respect
to the rapture and tribulation it isn't funny. Some believe the good are
taken, some believe the bad are, some believe pre, mid, post and others
reject the whole thing. 🙂
Kelly

Exactly. And if we are wrong, what a blessing that will be!
Besides, we should be living our lives in such a manner that he may return in an instant. 🙂

Originally posted by sonhouse
The second part is true at least. Did you not read that verse in Mathew where JC says some of you will not be dead before I come back or words to that effect? Saying this rapture thing and all that end day stuff is going to happen quite soon, not 2000 years later. The amazing part is how people can STAY duped with that nonsense millennium after millennium.

Sure says something about the alleged intelligence of the human race.

You are not very intelligent then, because Jesus never said what you just claimed He said. But Jesus did come back from the dead and He will also come back from Heaven so all will see Him at the resurrection of the dead.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are not very intelligent then, because Jesus never said what you just claimed He said. But Jesus did come back from the dead and He will also come back from Heaven so all will see Him at the resurrection of the dead.

Maybe you should read up on the bible you claim to be an expert in. I told you I went to Lutheran school from K-8 and had the bible and catechism shoved down our throats daily:

Mathew 16/28 King James:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Pretty much lays it all out right there. No 2000 year wait. Less than one lifetime.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Maybe you should read up on the bible you claim to be an expert in. I told you I went to Lutheran school from K-8 and had the bible and catechism shoved down our throats daily:

Mathew 16/28 King James:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Pretty much lays it all out right there. No 2000 year wait. Less than one lifetime.

Jesus could not have been saying that "this rapture thing and all that end day stuff is going to happen quite soon" as you claim because it hasn't happened yet.

I believe the point that Jesus is making when he says that there are some standing here who will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom is that the prophecy of Daniel 7:13–14 is to be fulfilled shortly.

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

He was referring to the fulfillment of his reception of the kingdom from the Father, and this was fulfilled within the lifetime of some of his hearers.

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Matthew 28:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

Originally posted by sonhouse
Maybe you should read up on the bible you claim to be an expert in. I told you I went to Lutheran school from K-8 and had the bible and catechism shoved down our throats daily:

Mathew 16/28 King James:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Pretty much lays it all out right there. No 2000 year wait. Less than one lifetime.

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

You read the words "the Son of man coming in his kingdom" . But as you read it what you THOUGHT in your mind was "the second coming of Jesus".

Originally posted by RJHinds

The Book of Revelation - Will There be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

I am sorry to say, but this pastor gives convincing proof that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture for the believers. I guess that many will take this as just more ammunition for those that see God as so sadistic that he will even make the believers go through the tribulation of the last days.

I did not see your video.

But if there is no rapture of ANY kind of ANY saints then there will not BE a great tribulation. It is the rapture of SOME of the believers from the earth which is the catalyst that causes the great tribulation to commence.

I did not say the rapture of the entire church. I said the rapture of SOME of the believers. Herein lies your error. Some of the watching and waiting believers have to be raptured before Satan is driven down restricted to only the earth.

And his being driven down, restricted to only the earth, is the CAUSE of the great tribulation. So there must be a pre-tribulation rapture of some of us Christians.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus could not have been saying that "this rapture thing and all that end day stuff is going to happen quite soon" as you claim because it hasn't happened yet.

I believe the point that Jesus is making when he says that there are some standing here who will not die before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom is that the prophecy of Daniel 7:13–14 ...[text shortened]... been given to Me in heaven and on earth. [/quote]

Matthew 28:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

Total BS. You just read into it what you want it to say. His kingdom of heaven is judgement day and you know it. 2000 years later, no rapture, no judgement, you are just in total denial as usual.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Total BS. You just read into it what you want it to say. His kingdom of heaven is judgement day and you know it. 2000 years later, no rapture, no judgement, you are just in total denial as usual.

LOL.

"And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."

Tell us again sonhouse how we just know that Jesus is not Lord.

"And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."

There is no faithful keeping of Christ's words.

"And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."

tell me all about what I know.
Tell me "Atheism is the truth ...

"And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."

I know you are a dying liar. That's what I know.

The rapture is thought mostly of in terms of an escape. But the rapture is a strategic move in the spiritual warfare to tip the scales in favor of the kingdom of God. This is mainly seen in chapter 12 of Revelation.

Immediately after the rapture of the manchild war commences in heaven and Satan and his angels are driven down to the earth. And this pronouncement follows:

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)

The "they" in this announcement - "And THEY overcame him .." refers to the manchild who has just been raptured to the throne of God.

I said the "they" and the "their" refers to the manchild that was raptured. That is a collective group of overcomers. And at their rapture "the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God" has come.

So I said that the rapture of at least SOME of the church as the collective manchild triggers the angelic hosts to drive Satan down to the earth and announce that the kingdom and power and authority of Christ has come.

Now here is why I said that this rapture triggers the great tribulation to occur and without this rapture there would be no tribulation. The reason is in verse 11 -

"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:12)

The rapture of the collective manchild as the overcomers causes Satan to be driven down (vs 7-9). But the devil comes down to the earth in great rage because he knows that he has only a short time left.

So, beloveds, the rapture of some overcomers is the cause of the Devil to come down to the earth frantic that he has only a short time left, and THAT is what causes the great tribulation to commence.

So let some of us be ready to be raptured that we may usher in a new age. Rapture is a strategic victory in the age old spiritual warfare in favor of the kingdom of God and Christ's authority.

(I bet many of you never heard that before. Did you ?) Watch now some objection from traditional Christianity that the manchild refers to the baby Jesus or something else. Watch.

Originally posted by sonship
LOL.

"And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."

Tell us again sonhouse how we just know that Jesus is not Lord.

"And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."
And you know it."

There is no faithful keeping of Christ's words.

"And you know it."
And you know it."
And ...[text shortened]...
And you know it."
And you know it."

I know you are a dying liar. That's what I know.

So the gist of all that is JC did not mean the end of the world as fundies think? I think you are rationalizing it all away because I think that is exactly what that verse says.

You just read into it what your programming lets you read into it.

So when do YOU think this rapture and the end days will be? 2100? 3100? 31,000? When?

I think it won't be happening even in the year 1,000,000. or 1 billion, when there for sure won't be any humans around anyway.

Originally posted by sonhouse

So the gist of all that is JC did not mean the end of the world as fundies think?

"End of the world" ? Did I say anything about "end of the world" ?

Whether Christs descent means and END or a BEGINNING depends on your point of view. If you're opposed to God's administration His physical return means an "end" of the world for you. That's the end.

boohoo.

What He said was the coming of the Son of man in His kingdom.
And what He showed three disciples was a brief preview on the mount of transfiguration of the Son of man coming in His kingdom.

That is why it mentions that six days latter after this discourse the transfiguration was witnessed by Peter, James, and John. Look at the two verses together in context:

"Truly I say to you, There are some of those standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

And after six days Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother and brought them up to a high mountain privately. And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun ..." (Matt. 16:28-17:1,2a)

His transfiguration was His giving some of those standing by a preview of the glorified Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

I think you are rationalizing it all away because I think that is exactly what that verse says.

You just read into it what your programming lets you read into it.

So when do YOU think this rapture and the end days will be? 2100? 3100? 31,000? When?

I think I am reading it in Matthew's Gospel in a most logical manner. Six days latter after uttering this word He gave some of those standing by a prileminary glimpse of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

He temporarily "unzipped" Himself, so to speak, and the divine splendor of the Godman shone out. And that will be glorious when some of us do the same thing at His coming in His kingdom in full.

As to WHEN this will occur? That I DO NOT KNOW. I will tell you what I DO know. Every time I turn to the Lord Jesus within, getting out of myself and enjoying His Holy Spirit, I AM raptured away from SOMETHING negative.

So I am PRACTICING rapture each day. And it is enjoyable. But it is also a challenge because my old man loves this dying world some. But it is more glorious to walk with God and be raptured many times a day AWAY from sin, the world, the lust of the flesh, religion and this world which is doomed to be replaced by the administration of the Son of Man.

You, I suppose are longing to find another earth like planet. But if you could take yourself there and your friends, you would quickly realize that you have traveled millions of miles just to take your fallen sinful nature WITH you to a new place.

That is sad. We need to migrate into Jesus Christ.

I think it won't be happening even in the year 1,000,000. or 1 billion, when there for sure won't be any humans around anyway.

We do not know WHEN Christ will physically return. I hope it will be in my life time. I intend to enjoy Jesus Christ just the same should He tarry.

He is delaying to give YOU, sonhouse, time also to be SAVED.
I said Christ delays, because He desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

His delay is also for the purpose that you be saved.

My opinion is that since the reformation of Israel, the time should not be long. But I do not KNOW the day nor the hour as no one knows. It is enough enjoyment to see Christ working still as the Holy Spirit around the globe.

We are having quite an enjoyable time learning to walk in Christ and live in Christ.

Hey! Got something better? What is it ??

Originally posted by sonhouse
Total BS. You just read into it what you want it to say. His kingdom of heaven is judgement day and you know it. 2000 years later, no rapture, no judgement, you are just in total denial as usual.

Yes, I totally deny that it means what you say it means, because what you say it means has not happened yet. And Jesus said no one but the Father knows the day or hour for that event.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Book of Revelation - Will There be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

I am sorry to say, but this pastor gives convincing proof that there will be no pre-tribulation rapture for the believers. I guess that many will take this as just more ammunition for those that see God as so sadistic that he will even make the believers go through the tribulation of the last days.

Where in the Bible is the word rapture even used?

Originally posted by galveston75
Where in the Bible is the word rapture even used?

You know full well he is referring to the phrase "caught up" in Thess., where we which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Originally posted by sonship

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

You read the words [b]"the Son of man coming in his kingdom" . But as you read it what you THOUGHT in your mind was "the second coming of Jesus".[/b]

Bingo.