No pre-tribulaion rapture

If no one proposes a problem to selective rapture I can well poss my own researched objections and answer them - most of them.

But for a moment I draw attention to the life matter of Revelation 14. In this one important chapter you definitely have a selection in rapture.

In Revelation 14, basically you see -

1.) Firstfruits taken to Heaven before the events of the great tribulation.
2.) The events of the great tribulation.
3.) The Harvest taken up to the air at the end of the great tribulation.

In other words, think of a field of growing crops. You have the Firstfruits and you have the Harvest. And between the Firstfruits and the Harvest is the events of the great tribulation.

Go read Revelation 14 and see for yourself.

God's people on earth are like a crop of growing plants. Some will ripen early. The majority will ripen together latter. That is exactly what we see in Revelation 14 in a nutshell -

Firstfruits - great tribulation - Harvest.

Here is the outline again:

Verses 1 - 5 - the First Reaping of the Firstfruits Before the Great Tribulation

Verses 6-7 - The Eternal Gospel of fearing God the Creator announced supernaturally to earth dwellers in the Great Tribulation

Verse 8 - The fall of Religious Babylon in the Great Tribulation

Verses 9-12 - The Warning against the worship of Antichrist in the Great Tribulation

Verse 13 - The blessing of the Martyrs slain in the Great Tribulation

Verses 14-16 - The Harvest of Believers taken up near the End of the Great Tribulation

Verses 17 - 20 - The Gathering of the Grapes of (evildoers) in the wine press of the battle of Armageddon at the End of the Great Tribulation.

It is all spelled out quite clearly in the footnotes and outline of the Recovery Version Bible.

www.recoveryversion.org

If anyone is shy about proposing objections to torture test selective rapture, I can propose problems myself that legitimately should be discussed.

Should I propose typical serious objections?
Or should I wait for others to do so?

Most of the objections to this understanding of Revelation 14 seem to be along the line of not knowing that Firstfruits taken to Mount Zion is a rapture or is a Pre-Tribulation one if one.

I find many readers assume that the 144,000 Firstfruits must be the same 144,000 Israelites sealed by God in chapter 7.

Its a good point to discuss. Don't crowd now! Don't crowd!!

(Isn't anybody going to crowd?)

In Revelation 14's depiction of a Firstfruits, tribulation, Harvest scenario, the problem some critics have is that it is not obvious that the Firstfruits is a Pre-tribulation rapture.

First will deal with it being a Rapture. Then I will attempt to prove that it has to be a Pre-tribulation one.

When you read verses 1 through 20 it should be beyond dispute that these people are in Heaven. The Sound of their singing comes FROM Heaven (v.2). So they must have been taken THERE.

"And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and ... etc."

Where did the sound of them singing come from? -- "out of heaven".

Now it is significant that the Bible does not show here the ACTION of them being caught up to heaven. It simply records that that is where they ARE.

This is not insignificant. The fact that it simply says that in heaven is where they are is that they have BEEN there in heart even when they were on earth. In other words, there was only a change in PHYSICAL location. In their hearts they were already in heaven following the Lamb where ever He goes WHILE living on earth.

Do you see?

"These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go." (v.4)

As we live on the earth as Christians, it is normal that we should be setting our minds on the things which are above, where Christ is. For our life is hidden with Christ in God. Right? See Colossians 3:1-3

"If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." (Col. 3:1-3)

Revelation 14 doesn't tell of the action of them being transported to heaven. It just shows that that is where they are. They have been following the Lamb - the Redeeming Godman Christ while they lived on earth. They are already in the heavenlies in heart, in mind, in attitude. IE. In the office but inwardly in heaven. In traffic but inwardly in heaven. In the world but not of the world.

Revelation says "These were purchased from among men as firstfuits to God and to the Lamb."

"Purchased FROM the earth" also should indicate rapture.

No lie was found in their mouth. This doesn't mean that they are perfect. It probably means that they were all CONFESSED up. They have no sins secretly retained. They have confessed all known faults as they seek to "follow the Lamb".

These Firstfruits should remind of Enoch who walked with God before the flood. And as a reward he was simply taken by God.

Another point about the Firstfruits on Mount Zion in the heavens. Maybe the Holy Spirit just gave this to me this morning.

Do you remember how when Stephen was stoned, he saw Jesus STANDING at the right hand of God ?

Well Colossians says to set our mind on the things above where Christ is sitting. Yet the Firstfruits meet Jesus STANDING.

"And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads." (14:1)

I would like to think that Jesus STOOD at the event of the first Christian martyr so also He stands at the rapture of these living Christians who are taken up to heaven in rapture.

He honors them and He honored Stephen the first Christian martyr.

"And he [Stephen] said, Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. ... And they threw him outside of the city and stoned him ... And they stoned Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" (See Acts 7:56-59)

Stephen was murdered for his faith and Jesus stood in heaven to honor him.

The Firstfruits that follow the Lamb are not martyred. But are honored similarly because Jesus wants and needs some human beings to have the experience of LIVING in Him until the end. They followed Christ throughout life with their minds set on the things which are above.

When they suddenly find their physical being the same place as their spiritual being, Jesus also stands to honor them as well.

I did not see this until this morning. Thank God. I think it is safe at least.

These raptured FIRST ripened Christians have a new experience in history. That is living until like Enoch they are simply transported to Heaven for their walk with God.

"And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who have been purchased from the earth." (14:3)

I am still considering what Sonship has proposed, and find it very interesting...here is a little twist because it does not mention the rapture of the faithful saints...

The Truth of Prewrath
I believe that the Prewrath position adds the fourth leg to the chair illustration. By taking what is biblically defensible from each of the other three positions, the Prewrath position begins with strong supports already in place. As do all the rapture positions discussed, I also believe that the saints will not experience the eschatological wrath of God. Like those who hold to the midtrib position, I see a distinction between the wrath of God and the wrath of Antichrist/man. Like the posttrib position, I believe that the wrath of God will be evidenced only after the persecution of Antichrist is finished. Therefore, like the posttribbers, I believe that the Church will experience the direct persecution of Satan/Antichrist.

This is where the Prewrath position adds the critical fourth leg to the chair. The Word of God teaches that Satan/Antichrist’s persecution will be cut short (13) in Matthew 24:22. (14) How? By removing the object of the evil one’s persecution–the Church–to heaven and putting the remnant of Israel in protective custody. (15) This one refinement makes several things possible: 1) it provides sufficient time for all of God’s wrath to occur without manufacturing a way for the Church to be present while that wrath rains down all around them; 2) it provides the necessary time needed for the salvation of Zechariah’s prophesied one-third remnant of Israel who will be the inhabitants of the millennial kingdom; 3) it provides the time necessary for the salvation of a remnant of Gentiles from the nations who refuse to take the mark of Antichrist.

Therefore, the Prewrath position stands on four solid legs. One leg involves the Church’s exemption from the wrath of God (pretribulationalism). One leg consists of a distinction between the wrath of God and the wrath of Antichrist (midtribulationalism). One leg constitutes a distinction between the “great tribulation” and the eschatological Day of the Lord (posttribulationalism). The last leg shows that the persecution by Antichrist will be cut short (16) before the end of the Seventieth Week, providing the interval between the rapture and Christ’s coming at the battle of Armageddon during which time all of the trumpet and bowl judgments will be played out.

The identification of the wrath of God with the eschatological Day of the Lord is the key. All sides agree that the eschatological Day of the Lord involves both the final judgment of God and the deliverance of His saints. Drs. Craig A. Blaising and Darrell L. Bock in reference to 1 Thessalonians write,

Deliverance in the Day of the Lord is a special theme of 1 Thessalonians. At His return, Jesus “delivers us from the wrath to come” (1:10). Paul teaches the church that the Day of the Lord will not “over take you like a thief” (5:4). . . . In the context, this deliverance would seem to be the blessing of resurrection and translation into immortality which Christ will grant His own at His coming (1 Thes. 4:13-18), an event which is called the Rapture. . . . This deliverance, or rapture, would appear to coincide with the inception or coming of the Day of the Lord, since that is the focus in 1 Thessaolonians 5:2-4. (17)

Both Drs. Blaising and Bock taught at Dallas Seminary during my time of study there. It was from Dr. Blaising that I studied eschatology. Both are solidly pretrib, yet they recognize the biblical basis for claiming that the eschatological Day of the Lord and the timing of the rapture must occur at the same time. J. Dwight Pentecost writes in his book, Things to Come,

The only way this day could break unexpectedly upon the world is to have it begin immediately after the rapture of the church. It is thus concluded that the Day of the Lord is that extended period of time beginning with God’s dealing with Israel after the rapture at the beginning of the tribulation period and extending through the second advent and the millennial age unto the creation of the new heavens and the new earth after the millennium. (18)

Pentecost is obviously pretribulational. However, he too recognizes the necessity that the eschatological Day of the Lord follows the rapture. The timing issue can be settled if the beginning of the Day of the Lord can be determined within the frame work of end-time events. The Prewrath position acknowledges that the eschatological Day of the Lord will be signaled by a sign given in the sun, moon, and stars, a sign distinctly described in the eschatological book of Joel. (19) Jesus indicates in the Olivet Discourse that His Parousia will immediately follow the sign Joel prophesied, which marks the inception of the eschatological Day of the Lord. Jesus also indicated in His revelation to John that Joel’s sign in the sun, moon, and stars will be the sign that announces the day in which His wrath begins, a sign given in the heavenlies that will be displayed at the breaking of the sixth seal. Therefore, as one compares the six seals to the events outlined in the Olivet Discourse, one quickly sees that the rapture must occur after the Seventieth Week of Daniel begins, after the mid-point of that same Week has begun, and after Satan/Antichrist’s persecution of the Church is cut short (Matt. 24:22) when the sign of the eschatological Day of the Lord and the parousia of Christ is given in the sun, moon, and stars. The exact day or hour when the sixth seal will be broken is not detailed in the Scriptures (Matt. 24:36), but when that happens it will announce to the entire world the inception of the eschatological Day of the Lord.

Does the timing component offered by the Prewrath position have incontrovertible biblical support? If you search the Scriptures we believe that it does. Our four-legged chair is durable, reliable, and practical. Have a seat, and test it for yourself.

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ENDNOTES
1. John Walvoord, The Rapture Question, (Findlay, Ohio: n.p. 1957), 148.
2. Richard R. Reiter, Paul D. Feinberg, Gleason L. Archer and Douglas J. Moo, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulational? (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1984), 139.
3. ibid., 108.
4. See Dan. 9:27 and Rev. 12:7-13:18.
5. See Mark 13:14; 2 Thess. 2:3; and Rev. 13:1-8 with Rev. 15:1, 7 and 16:1.
6. Richard R. Reiter, Paul D. Feinberg, Gleason L. Archer and Douglas J. Moo, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulational? (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1984), 183.
7. See Ob. 15; Zeph. 1:15-18 and Is. 13:6.
8. See Is. 27; Jer. 30:8-9 and Joel 2:32.
9. ibid., 182.
10. ibid., 177.
11. Robert H. Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1973), 44-63.
12. Richard R. Reiter, Paul D. Feinberg, Gleason L. Archer and Douglas J. Moo, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulational? (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1984), 72.
13. The term koloboo in the passive sense refers to that which has been amputated or reduced in size. The LXX used this verb to explain the actions of David’s men in 2 Samuel 4:12 where clearly amputation is the sense. Extant occurrences of the term support a literal interpretation in Matthew 24:22.
14. It is important at this point for the reader to understand that it is the persecution that Christ is referring to, not the second half of the Seventieth Week of Daniel. Antichrist will reign for three-and-a-half years, but his persecution will not.
15. This position is argued in detail in The Rapture Question Answered Plain and Simple and The Sign by Robert Van Kampen.
16. See endnote 14 above.
17. Craig A. Blaising and Darrell L. Bock, Progressive Dispensationalism, (Wheaton: Victor Books, 1993), 263-64.
18. J. Dwight Pentecost, Things to Come, (Grand Rapids: Dunham Publishing Company, 1967), 230-231. Dr. Pentecost would make the Day of the Lord 1007 years long–a fact that is greatly debated.
19. See Joel 2:28-32; Matt. 24:29-31; Acts 2:14-21 and Rev. 6:12-17.

But what of them being "virgins" and not being defiled with women ?

" These are they who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go ..."

Are we saying that only single male virgins will be pre-tribulation raptured?

Are we saying only those not defiled with the intimacy of marriage will be raptured ?

I do not believe that this is the message of verse 4. The other passages of apparently pre-tribulation rapture speak of sister Christians being taken as well -

"At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two WOMEN will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes." (Matt. 24:40-42)

In principle we should expect male and female disciples of Jesus who are walking with God to be suddenly taken in a pre-tribulation rapture.

Revelation 14 does mention virgins. I see no reason to restrict pre-tribulation to make virgins. The number 144,000 is spiritually significant. I do not know if ONLY 144,000 go up pre-tribulation. And the principle of virgnity there has been applied to women elsewhere, Compare (Matt. 19:12 to 1 Cor. 7:37; 2 Cor. 11:2)

Another consideration that I personally have is that perhaps by the end of this age, even now, fornication will be so rampant and widespread, that to remain a virgin loving the Lord Jesus rather than the licentiousness of the world will be exemplary even among God's people.

Millions are being caught in the pitcher plant trap of sexual indulgence and fornication.

At any rate, I have long considered that " ... in their mouth no lie was found; they are without blemish" implies the perfection of full confession and washing in the blood of Christ's redemption for forgiveness and the forsaking of all known sins.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I am still considering what Sonship has proposed, and find it very interesting...here is a little twist because it does not mention the rapture of the faithful saints...

The Truth of Prewrath
I believe that the Prewrath position adds the fourth leg to the chair illustration. By taking what is biblically defensible from each of the other three positio ...[text shortened]... t that is greatly debated.
19. See Joel 2:28-32; Matt. 24:29-31; Acts 2:14-21 and Rev. 6:12-17.

Originally posted by sonship
A Christian teacher of the Bible had this to say:

[quote] There is no pre-tribulation rapture. The first time the gathering of the saints is mentioned in the NT is in Matthew 24 in Christ's teaching on the end times. There he says that he will return immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24: 29-31). This timing never changes throughout the NT. New ...[text shortened]... constituents of the nation of Israel, Christ's coming is with great public and cosmic calamity.

Originally posted by RJHinds
There is nothing said about a secret coming or a secret rapture in the teachings of Jesus.

In Revelation 14's depiction of a Firstfruits, tribulation, Harvest scenario, the problem some critics have is that it is not obvious that the Firstfruits is a Pre-tribulation rapture.

First will deal with it being a Rapture. Then I will attempt to prove that it has to be a Pre-tribulation one.

When you read verses 1 through 20 it should be beyond dispute that these people are in Heaven. The Sound of their singing comes FROM Heaven (v.2). So they must have been taken THERE.

"And I heard a voice out of heaven like the sound of many waters and ... etc."

Where did the sound of them singing come from? -- "out of heaven".

Now it is significant that the Bible does not show here the ACTION of them being caught up to heaven. It simply records that that is where they ARE.

This is not insignificant. The fact that it simply says that in heaven is where they are is that they have BEEN there in heart even when they were on earth. In other words, there was only a change in PHYSICAL location. In their hearts they were already in heaven following the Lamb where ever He goes WHILE living on earth.

Do you see?

Originally posted by RJHinds
There is nothing said about a secret coming or a secret rapture in the teachings of Jesus.

There is nothing said about a secret coming or a secret rapture in the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
]

Deliverance in the Day of the Lord is a special theme of 1 Thessalonians. At His return, Jesus “delivers us from the wrath to come” (1:10). Paul teaches the church that the Day of the Lord will not “over take you like a thief” (5:4). . . . In the context, this deliverance would seem to be the blessing of resurrection and translation into immortality which Christ will grant His own at His coming (1 Thes. 4:13-18), an event which is called the Rapture. . . . This deliverance, or rapture, would appear to coincide with the inception or coming of the Day of the Lord, since that is the focus in 1 Thessaolonians 5:2-4. (17)

Originally posted by sonship

There is nothing said about a secret coming or a secret rapture in the teachings of Jesus.

When will He come ? It is a secret. That is why [b]"The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know." (Matt. 24:51)

Its a secret. It is God's secret.
Be rea ...[text shortened]... ed the warnings to watch and be ready, it is completely logical that you would fail to be taken.[/b]

Originally posted by RJHinds
The day and the hour is a secret, but the fact that the rapture is AFTER the tribulation of those days is no secret. You are trying to fit in a Secret rapture before the tribulation. That would make two raptures. One secret before the tribulation and one revealed after the tribulation if i understand you correctly.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Or the truth, there will be no tribulations, no trial, no rapture, just the human race getting itself into its own trouble, painting itself into its own corner by its lack of real intelligence, that intelligence that can tell fairy tales for what they are. Every day that goes by reinforces my stance.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Go your way and leave us to figure out our fairy tale.