Question for hell doubters

Question for hell doubters

Spirituality

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C
It is what it is

Pretoria

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15 Sep 14
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There have been quite a few threads on hell here lately. Sonship had the one about what Jesus said about hell, and then the entire debate about the meaning of "death", and whether the punishment is "eternal annihilation" or "eternal torment".

I have not joined the fray for reasons that I may explain later in a separate thread.

For the moment I just want to address the issue of the "Poor man, Rich man" story that Jesus told, that is often taken as proof of eternal torture.

Two comments:

Firstly, it is clear that this is an allegory, a fable, a parable, as so many of Jesus' stories. The fact that it cannot possibly be taken literally is seen from the following:
- the fact that a single drop of water (which is what was asked for and refused) cannot possibly solve the rich man's problem
- the existence of a visible gulf between the two places, across which one can hold a conversation, which is clearly untenable for "heavenly bliss".

Both of these descriptions are thus clearly metaphorical.

However, the main point that sonship and everybody else (except maybe Rajk!) seems to miss, is that this parable has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation, being "born again" or Faith in Christ. Nowhere is it mentioned that Lazarus "believed in God" (as was recorded about e.g. Abraham), and that the rich man was an unbeliever.

The ONLY reason stated here for the rich man ending up where he did was that he LACKED COMPASSION, that he did not care for the poor man at his gate.

This parable is about Good Works, about Caring For The Poor - which was always close to Jesus' heart (as well as the Apostles later).

So anybody that is using this scripture to prove hell for the unbelievers, is missing the boat completely!

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Originally posted by CalJust
So anybody that is using this scripture to prove hell for the unbelievers, is missing the boat completely!
Any Christian that wants to use hell as a motivation to believe in Christ has missed the boat completely.

C
It is what it is

Pretoria

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15 Sep 14

Originally posted by divegeester
Any Christian that wants to use hell as a motivation to believe in Christ has missed the boat completely.
Amen, preach it brother!
🙂

w

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Originally posted by FMF
Supposed punishment "by the Almighty" is for religionists to imagine, codify and threaten, not me.
But you don't even believe.

For those who feel threatened they simply don't believe. By God not proving himself to exist allows this claimed coercion to simply vanish.

Kali

PenTesting

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Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe the Holy Bible teaches that there are two different kinds of death. The first death that all experience is the death of the body. Once the body is dead, it can not experience pain, torment, or suffering. It just decays until it turns to dust. That would be annihilation and ceasing to exist. But that is not an eternal or everlasting death, becau ...[text shortened]... which is identified as the second death in Revelation?

See Revelation 14:11, 20:10, and 21:8.
The KJV says this:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You say this:

... some to everlasting life and others to everlasting torment (Matthwe 25:46).

Is there some version of the Bible that changed the words from punishment to torment or is that just your wording?

F

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Originally posted by whodey
For those who feel threatened they simply don't believe. By God not proving himself to exist allows this claimed coercion to simply vanish.
There is no "coercion" for unbelievers. That's why I have been asking, among other things: do Christians think that genuine "belief and "love" can be created by coercion or extortion? I do not feel "threatened" in the slightest by this particular as-ghastly-as-it-gets imagination/ideology of [some] Christians. I am simply curious about the ideology ~ its purpose ~ and I am curious about what makes its subscribers tick.

F

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Originally posted by whodey
But you don't even believe.
Exactly. Which makes you look a bit daft asking me: "What then should be done to judge them by the Almighty?"

The Near Genius

Fort Gordon

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15 Sep 14

Originally posted by CalJust
There have been quite a few threads on hell here lately. Sonship had the one about what Jesus said about hell, and then the entire debate about the meaning of "death", and whether the punishment is "eternal annihilation" or "eternal torment".

I have not joined the fray for reasons that I may explain later in a separate thread.

For the moment I just wan ...[text shortened]... that is using this scripture to prove hell for the unbelievers, is missing the boat completely!
This just shows that Jesus can have more than one point to make in His parables.

The Near Genius

Fort Gordon

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Originally posted by Rajk999
The KJV says this:

[b]Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


You say this:

... some to everlasting life and others to everlasting torment (Matthwe 25:46).

Is there some version of the Bible that changed the words from punishment to torment or is that just your wording?[/b]
The Aramaic Bible in Plain English is the only one that I know that varies from "punishment" by using "torture" instead. As I understand it, torment is a type of punishment that I get from reading Revelations 14, 19, and 20. I suppose there could be some other type punishment, like weeping and gnashing of teeth, if that is a punishment.

The Near Genius

Fort Gordon

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15 Sep 14

Originally posted by FMF
Exactly. Which makes you look a bit daft asking me: "What then should be done to judge them by the Almighty?"
The Almighty has chosen the Lake of Fire and Brimstone as the punishment for Satan and his angels (demons) and all that follow the devils lead. There is where they will be in torment day and night forever and ever.

Kali

PenTesting

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Originally posted by RJHinds
The Aramaic Bible in Plain English is the only one that I know that varies from "punishment" by using "torture" instead. As I understand it, torment is a type of punishment that I get from reading Revelations 14, 19, and 20. I suppose there could be some other type punishment, like weeping and gnashing of teeth, if that is a punishment.
Toyota is a type of motorcar so wherever I see the word motor car it is ok to change it to Toyota... you are such a smart guy !!

The Near Genius

Fort Gordon

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Originally posted by Rajk999
Toyota is a type of motorcar so wherever I see the word motor car it is ok to change it to Toyota... you are such a smart guy !!
Of course it is, if Toyota is the type of motor car being talked about. 😏

w

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16 Sep 14

Originally posted by FMF
There is no "coercion" for unbelievers. That's why I have been asking, among other things: do Christians think that genuine "belief and "love" can be created by coercion or extortion? I do not feel "threatened" in the slightest by this particular as-ghastly-as-it-gets imagination/ideology of [some] Christians. I am simply curious about the ideology ~ its purpose ~ and I am curious about what makes its subscribers tick.
Name one person who thinks they are going to hell.

D
Losing the Thread

Quarantined World

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16 Sep 14

Originally posted by whodey
Name one person who thinks they are going to hell.
Presumably Satanists.

F

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Originally posted by whodey
Name one person who thinks they are going to hell.
You should ask people who believe in the "Hell" ideology, not me. KellyJay has said that he will try to still love Jesus even if he is "punished" with "eternal torture". You should ask people like him who believe this "punishment" exists.