Originally posted by Fetchmyjunkhttp://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/rape-in-the-bible/
[b]I must point out that people in the Bible committed rape on Gods orders. Was God immoral to so command them?
So are you going to produce the goods or admit this was a lie?[/b]
Does this help? The usual suspects are listed, the familiar tales we know and [ ... ].
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkTry copying the URL into the bar at the top of your browser window. This will enable you to view its contents and read the specific Bible verses you apparently missed when you read the Bible.
Would you mind quoting the exact verse where God commands rape? I couldn't find it.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkTake this slowly. Don't forget to breath.
Would you mind quoting the exact verse where God commands rape? I couldn't find it.
My source: http://www.biblestudytools.com/asv/numbers/32.html
Numbers 31:7 (CEB) They battled against Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed every male.
Now from this verse you will see that "The Lord" gave a command to Moses, which we must assume Moses relayed to his followers, since they complied with the command. We are not told that "The Lord" communicated directly with anyone other than Moses.
I think we may take it that "The Lord" is a reference to God. Let me know if that is a mistake.
Next: after an account of the slewing and burning and plundering and imprisoning etc, we hear
Numbers 31:14 (ASV) And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who came from the service of the war.
Notice it is Moses who is wroth. What is he wroth about? It seems, the women:
Numbers 31:15 (ASV) And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
So he orders them to
Numbers 31:17 (ASV) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Numbers 31:18 (ASV) But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Now it gets complicated - you may be worrying that Moses is going outside the instructions he was given directly from God / The Lord / Jehovah and we need to establish that God is on board throughout this process. To this end, as we proceed, let's just keep our eye on the women-children that have not known man by lying with him. So I will cut out a lot of other stuff: obviously you can easily refer to the full text at any time. Bear in mind, crucially, that the only living prisoners at this stage consist of the women-children that have not known man by lying with him; all other persons have been killed; this is confirmed in verse 35.
25 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying, 26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the heads of the fathers' [houses] of the congregation;
Jehovah clearly refers to the human prisoners and describes them as "prey" so clearly Moses is acting in line with His instructions. So we have established that God is running this affair and Moses is following His commands. To continue:
27 and divide the prey into two parts: between the men skilled in war, that went out to battle, and all the congregation. 28 And levy a tribute unto Jehovah of the men of war that went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons,
Is this a human sacrifice by the way? What do you think?
.. and of the oxen, and of the asses, and of the flocks: 29 take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for Jehovah's heave-offering. 30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one drawn out of every fifty, of the persons, of the oxen,... and give them unto the Levites, that keep the charge of the tabernacle of Jehovah. 31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as Jehovah commanded Moses. 32 Now the prey, over and above the booty which the men of war took, was ... 33 , 34 35 and thirty and two thousand persons in all, of the women that had not known man by lying with him. 36 37 38 . 39 . 40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of whom Jehovah's tribute was thirty and two persons. 41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was Jehovah's heave-offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as Jehovah commanded Moses. 42 43 44 45 46 and sixteen thousand persons), ...
So if we have kept track, all this complies with direct instructions, from Jehovah / The Lord / God, but some of it both to Moses and also the high Priest it seems. The fate of the women-children that have not known man by lying with him is pretty clearly determined by God's instructions. I think we have established a very clear and direct line of responsibility to the commander of this operation and culpability must be placed at the top - with God, who ordered salaciously the separating out of young female virgins to be treated as war booty and handed over to the groups mentioned. What happened to Jehovah's own share of 32 virgins we are not told. What do you think happened to them?
Originally posted by finneganIt can be tricky to establish without doubt who is doing the talking. For this quote, Deuteronomy 10 is the place at which we establish who is actually responsible for what follows:
http://www.evilbible.com/evil-bible-home-page/rape-in-the-bible/
Does this help? The usual suspects are listed, the familiar tales we know and [ ... ].
10 And I stayed in the mount, as at the first time, forty days and forty nights: and Jehovah hearkened unto me that time also; Jehovah would not destroy thee. 11 And Jehovah said unto me, Arise, take thy journey before the people; and they shall go in and possess the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give unto them. 12 And now, Israel, what doth Jehovah thy God require of thee, but to fear Jehovah thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve Jehovah thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, 13 to keep the commandments of Jehovah, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
We then proceed through a very extended set of instructions until we come to the one of interest at Deuteronomy 20, still reciting God's instructions, which demands a range of whhat we would now call war crimes, including of course rape which I will highlight in this delightful passage:
1 When thou goest forth to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, [and] a people more than thou, thou shalt not be afraid of them; for Jehovah thy God is with thee, who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 2. .........
Blah Blah then ...
12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: 13 and when Jehovah thy God delivereth it into thy hand, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
14 but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take for a prey unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which Jehovah thy God hath given thee. 15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations. 16 But of the cities of these peoples, that Jehovah thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth; 17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as Jehovah thy God hath commanded thee; 18 that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so would ye sin against Jehovah your God. ... .
So here was have God commanding total war, and as one component of His command, the separation out of young women to be consumed as war booty. Now maybe you have a rendition of "eat the spoils" that is different but (only for the women, not the cattle and surely not the children - let's not go there at all) it seems most reasonable to interpret the term in this context as having a sexual connotation.
God commands rape.
With this passage in mind, it is easier to see why, in the previous post, Moses was wroth. He was wroth because his God given instructions were not followed correctly.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkJudges 5:30 is not directly quotong God but describing the behaviour of the Jews in war
Would you mind quoting the exact verse where God commands rape? I couldn't find it.
28 Through the window she looked forth, and cried, The mother of Sisera [cried] through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? Why tarry the wheels of his chariots? 29 Her wise ladies answered her, Yea, she returned answer to herself, 30 Have they not found, have they not divided the spoil? A damsel, two damsels to every man; To Sisera a spoil of dyed garments, A spoil of dyed garments embroidered, Of dyed garments embroidered on both sides, on the necks of the spoil? 31 So let all thine enemies perish, O Jehovah:
One can see how a man could be delayed getting home after such a process. His wheels could easily tarry, indeed.
All depends on how divinely inspired you think this stuff is and where you think there is any disapproval expressed. Did God directly complain about this somewhere?
Anyway, this quote is clearly consistent with the two earlier quotes and demonstrates the presence of a pattern, with God's direct command demonstrated in at least the first two. I think He is guilty as charged.
21 May 16
Originally posted by finneganWhat do you think happened to them?
Take this slowly. Don't forget to breath.
My source: http://www.biblestudytools.com/asv/numbers/32.html
Numbers 31:7 (CEB) They battled against Midian as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed every male.
Now from this verse you will see that "The Lord" gave a command to Moses, which we must assume Moses relayed to his followers, si ...[text shortened]... pened to Jehovah's own share of 32 virgins we are not told. What do you think happened to them?
Oh so I am supposed to imagine they were raped. Thought so.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkThinking what happened (deduction) and imagining (imagination) are different.
[b]What do you think happened to them?
Oh so I am supposed to imagine they were raped. Thought so.[/b]
So answer the question.
Or perhaps first answer this.
When you read the bible - do you think about what the text is saying happened?
(It's a YES or NO)
21 May 16
Originally posted by SuzianneNobody has asked you to take anything they say on their authority. Therefore 'which side their bread is buttered' is irrelevant. The quality of a reference is only important if the references authority is being used. If merely its content is being used then you must argue against its content and not use an ad hominem.
A website calling itself "Evil Bible"?? Seriously? I think we can surmise on which side their bread is buttered.
Originally posted by wolfgang59First off I would like to ask a simple question: Where was the rape? It never says it outright in the verse, and therefore requires some very large assumptions from EvilBible in order to make this work for them, which they do without a thought. EB uses this syllogism: "The virgin's relatives were killed. The men who killed them took the virgins in. They got married, so it must have been equivalent to rape (notice EB also assumes the marriage was forced)" Syllogisms do not contain perfect logic, for example "fish can swim. I can swim. I must be a fish." Therefore, there is no reason to believe that this actually contained rape, let alone repeatedly. There were even regulations for how to deal with said regulation. Give them a peace offer (Deut 20.10-14). This verse even goes on to show how war captives were to be treated, as follows:
Thinking what happened (deduction) and imagining (imagination) are different.
So answer the question.
Or perhaps first answer this.
When you read the bible - do you think about what the text is saying happened?
(It's a YES or NO)
Provide them with housing (taking them in)
Allowing them 1 month to mourn.
Then allow marriage
If they divorce, no mistreatment.
Where's the rape? You should know by now.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkYeah, what woman would not love to marry and have sex with her abductor who just helped murder her friends, family etc.?
First off I would like to ask a simple question: Where was the rape? It never says it outright in the verse, and therefore requires some very large assumptions from EvilBible in order to make this work for them, which they do without a thought. EB uses this syllogism: "The virgin's relatives were killed. The men who killed them took the virgins in. They ...[text shortened]... hen allow marriage
If they divorce, no mistreatment.
Where's the rape? You should know by now.
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Originally posted by KazetNagorraIndeed... I find it sickening that people nowadays even attempt to try to justify and
Yeah, what woman would not love to marry and have sex with her abductor who just helped murder her friends, family etc.?
worm their way out of admitting the atrocities and abominations in the bible.
I think the bigger and clearer problem [which leads to this specific problem] is that
throughout the bible women are treated as property [of men].
First of their fathers, and then of their husbands.
A fact made clear in the quoted segments where the women are "given" to the men
[to use as they pleased = rape].
This ties in with the fact that the bible has nothing bad to say about slavery.
Owning people was considered a perfectly normal and morally acceptable thing.
This is undeniable both as historical fact and on any reading of the text in the bible.