The Universe

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are not taking into account the fact that the big bang is not expansion into space, but rather expansion of space. If the universe is finite, then whatever shape it was when it initially emerged from the big bang, it probably still is, or it has warped over time, but the general topology would not have changed.

If the universe is finite, then it is ...[text shortened]... e looks like a circle, but try and draw a map of it on paper and you start to run into problems.

I'm not talking about any of that, and for you to talk down to me like I do not understand cosmology is a mistake. I know exactly what the Big Bang is, and a sphere is still the most logical shape. Consistent expansion in every direction results in a sphere. For it not to be a sphere, it would have had to have interaction with something stopping expansion in some directions but not in others.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm not talking about any of that, and for you to talk down to me like I do not understand cosmology is a mistake.

You very clearly do not understand cosmology. However, I am not talking down to you, merely pointing out your mistakes. I do not expect you to understand cosmology any more than I expect myself to understand any number of topic, including many in science. If you explained some aspect of science that I did not understand, I would not think you were talking down to me.

Consistent expansion in every direction results in a sphere.
It is, if you are thinking of space as expanding into something bigger than itself. But it is not. Space is complete. It fills everything and everywhere. There is no expansion into something else. It is also edge-less so to talk of it being spherical is totally incorrect. That is like saying the surface of the earth is a triangle, or a circle or a square. The surface of the earth is finite but unbounded. It has no shape in the two dimensions of the surface. Similarly space has no shape in the 3 dimensions of space.

It seems that anyone that doesn't agree with those that don't believe the universe was created don't understand science, or much of anything else, according to the last few post made by atheists above.

That is a stupid perspective to have. Just because someone doesn't agree with you about how the universe came into existence doesn't automatically make them wholly ignorant.

Especially considering that science hasn't actually produced the evidence it claims to have that proves there is no creator God, and proves that all life forms on this planet aren't exactly as they were first created. Reveal Hidden Content

No. Believing in God automatically disqualifies the believer out of hand.

Makes one wonder why they even bother to debate the issue. Must be a primal need of some sort. One they haven't "evolved" away from yet I guess. 😉

Originally posted by twhitehead
You very clearly [b]do not understand cosmology. However, I am not talking down to you, merely pointing out your mistakes. I do not expect you to understand cosmology any more than I expect myself to understand any number of topic, including many in science. If you explained some aspect of science that I did not understand, I would not think you were ...[text shortened]... in the two dimensions of the surface. Similarly space has no shape in the 3 dimensions of space.[/b]

FROM THE BOOK OF RIGHT ON (BACK OF THE NET).

Originally posted by Suzianne
I don't know about the "double" part of this (although I doubt that), but I think it can be inferred that the shape of the universe would be spherical if it evolved from a single point, as in the Big Bang. The only reason I see for a universe shaped differently would be because of localized clumping resulting from more gravity in some areas, but I still th ...[text shortened]... at near light speed. The technical explanations for the science involved have been fascinating.

He was a great writer. I remember a short story he wrote a long time ago about this cloud of some kind of energy that had come into the solar system like 50,000 years ago and the effect was to dampen the thinking process, so we evolved to recover that thinking ability we had before the cloud and now the cloud ran its course, leaving the solar system and all life forms became much smarter. That was a story called Brain wave.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You very clearly [b]do not understand cosmology. However, I am not talking down to you, merely pointing out your mistakes. I do not expect you to understand cosmology any more than I expect myself to understand any number of topic, including many in science. If you explained some aspect of science that I did not understand, I would not think you were ...[text shortened]... in the two dimensions of the surface. Similarly space has no shape in the 3 dimensions of space.[/b]

"Space is complete. It fills everything and everywhere. There is no expansion into something else. It is also edge-less so to talk of it being spherical is totally incorrect."

That seems perfectly plausible to me, but I can't be perfectly sure that that is true.

Space has some kind of property that gives it meaning and definition. To say it is complete and exists everywhere, and is infinite, seems a stretch of the imagination since it really can't be proven. Only assumed.

For me it gives rise to the question, how did space come into existence? For one to say that space has always existed is an assumption at best, unless one knows something that science hasn't proven.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Space is complete. It fills everything and everywhere. There is no expansion into something else. It is also edge-less so to talk of it being spherical is totally incorrect."

That seems perfectly plausible to me, but I can't be perfectly sure that that is true.

Space has some kind of property that gives it meaning and definition. To say it is ...[text shortened]... always existed is an assumption at best, unless one knows something that science hasn't proven.[/b]

The truly scientific answer is the cosmos is "Well Old"😀

Originally posted by josephw
It seems that anyone that doesn't agree with those that don't believe the universe was created don't understand science, or much of anything else, according to the last few post made by atheists above.

That is a stupid perspective to have. Just because someone doesn't agree with you about how the universe came into existence doesn't automatically make them wholly ignorant.

If you are referring to me, then have the honesty to say so directly. An if you are referring to me, then your accusations are totally unfounded. I do not assume that all creationists or all theists are ignorant of science. If I think someone is ignorant of a particular aspect of science, I think so based on what they say about it. You for example clearly do not understand the concepts involved in the articles talking about the universe being 'flat'. This has nothing to do with you being a creationist. Nor am I insulting you by pointing it out.

Originally posted by josephw
Space has some kind of property that gives it meaning and definition. To say it is complete and exists everywhere, and is infinite, seems a stretch of the imagination since it really can't be proven. Only assumed.

For me it gives rise to the question, how did space come into existence? For one to say that space has always existed is an assumption at best, unless one knows something that science hasn't proven.

I have neither said it is infinite or that it has always existed. Nobody knows whether or not it is finite in space or time.
What I am saying, is that it does not have edges. Think about the surface of the earth. Uneducated people might think that if you keep walking in one direction, you will fall off the edge of the earth. But you and I know that there are no edges. So if you meet two people in a village in Africa and they are arguing about whether or not the earth is a square or a triangle, you can tell them it does not have a shape because it doesn't have edges at all. They may find that a rather mind-bending experience but with the help of models you might be able to explain it.

But do you realize that although it has no shape, it is not infinite?

Originally posted by twhitehead
How is that relevant? You said we own it. We can do nothing whatsoever about it, with it, for it, to it etc. Our ownership of it carries no meaning.

I said none of that.

I said a Man owned it - a God-man.
Now if we are one with Him through salvation then we too share in the inheritance.

You said we own it.

If "we" are brought into Christ we share in His inheritance.

"Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5)

Expected pushback: "I know plenty of Christians who ain't meek".

Sure. I am not always meek. But we're a work in progress.

You thought I meant men in or out of Christ, but simply born.
We are men like Christ became a man. True.

But we have to be brought into Him, in living union with Him to be like Him - a son of God in divine life.

Adam lost the inheritance.
The "last Adam" Christ restores it to the saved.

To the sons of God, is God's guarantee that the creation is their inheritance.

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7)

The Firstborn Son of God is Heir to the universe.
And the following sons of God who are brought into union WITH Him in life and nature share that inheritance.

So the writer of Hebrews says this One is leading many sons into the the eternal expression of God and man united.

"For it is fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Heb. 2:10)

Through regeneration and salvation we become brothers of the Firstborn Son of God. And then He will lead many sons into the eternal expression of people in a life union with God as He is.

The opportunity to joined to Jesus Christ is there for man.

How is that relevant? You said we own it. We can do nothing whatsoever about it, with it, for it, to it etc. Our ownership of it carries no meaning.

We all have the potential to be co-heirs with Christ through Christ's salvation.

The universe is waiting for the maturity and manifestation of the sons of God.

" For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God. ... the creation itself will be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (See Romans 8:20-22)

The opportunity to be a part of the "we" is there for anyone willing to be saved in Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by josephw
It seems that anyone that doesn't agree with those that don't believe the universe was created don't understand science, or much of anything else, according to the last few post made by atheists above.

That is a stupid perspective to have. Just because someone doesn't agree with you about how the universe came into existence doesn't automatically make the ...[text shortened]... issue. Must be a primal need of some sort. One they haven't "evolved" away from yet I guess. 😉

We have some strong evidence about the beginning of the universe, BB and all that and now waiting for gravitational wave detectors to get sensitive enough to detect the background gravitational radiation from the BB which would put us within nanoseconds of the birth of the universe (which has not happened yet, that detection)

All that said, it is just as valid scientifically to say a god breathed or pooped or whatever to kickstart the universe as to say it all happened because of wiggles in an energy field or whatever.

My favorite scene for a deity making the universe is it was the equivalent of a HS science class where the students had to make a universe and that universe was hung like a bird cage in the air for the instructor to check over and grade for some quality criteria.

A myth like that could just as easily come about as the 6 day creation myth plagiarized from ancient Egypt, which Moses would have learned as a kid.

So any theory at this point, any religious view about the beginning of the universe that allows a very old universe and not one constricted to be only a few thousand years old, any of those ideas are equally valid since at this point in time, none can be either refuted or debunked.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You very clearly [b]do not understand cosmology. However, I am not talking down to you, merely pointing out your mistakes. I do not expect you to understand cosmology any more than I expect myself to understand any number of topic, including many in science. If you explained some aspect of science that I did not understand, I would not think you were ...[text shortened]... in the two dimensions of the surface. Similarly space has no shape in the 3 dimensions of space.[/b]

You seem to be assuming that God stretched out the heavens in all directions at the same time. God may not have stretched the heavens out in all directions uniformly. No one but God knows. The so-called "Big Bang" could not have been an explosion because the universe is ordered and one does not get order from explosions. The stretching had to be controlled to create order.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You seem to be assuming ...

No, you are the one assuming you understand what is being discussed. You assume wrong. Go find some other thread that you actually understand.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have neither said it is infinite or that it has always existed. Nobody knows whether or not it is finite in space or time.
What I am saying, is that it does not have edges. Think about the surface of the earth. Uneducated people might think that if you keep walking in one direction, you will fall off the edge of the earth. But you and I know that there ...[text shortened]... be able to explain it.

But do you realize that although it has no shape, it is not infinite?

The earth has many edges. Haven't you ever heard of someone falling off the edge of a cliff before?

edge
noun:
1. the outside limit of an object, area, or surface; a place or part farthest away from the center of something.

"a willow tree at the water's edge"

synonyms: border, boundary, extremity, fringe, margin, side

Originally posted by sonhouse
We have some strong evidence about the beginning of the universe, BB and all that and now waiting for gravitational wave detectors to get sensitive enough to detect the background gravitational radiation from the BB which would put us within nanoseconds of the birth of the universe (which has not happened yet, that detection)

All that said, it is just a ...[text shortened]... ose ideas are equally valid since at this point in time, none can be either refuted or debunked.

"He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.

(Job 26:7)