english opening thread

so when white fianchettoes the white bishop i know a key thing is to keep it on the board and not trade it for blacks white bishop. so when black moves the white bishop off the 8th rank then is h3 almost an automatic move if there is no other threat?

kmac27

i like doing h3 early on in the english....i know its not the smartest line but its fun - (1st for moves if allowed) c4,nc3,d3,h3.....fun because the knight cant advance of a bishop cant take your knight....

of course, at your level this would be smashed....😞

I know you are at a higher level... but I think this might not be too bad of an idea unless black is able to pin the f-pawn to the king, in which case it would completley leave the g-pawn undefended since you've moved the h-pawn. Also, I wouldn't waste my time doing that unless I had to, or I would have to in the future. If you do it too early, black can then make other plans to trade off the white bishop. One of the things I have been taught is to avoid making frivilous pawn moves, there are usually greater things to attend to.

Sometimes the exchange of bishops is very helpful for Black and sometimes it is not that big a deal. Anyways, if you are playing White and you absolutely want to avoid the exchange of bishops then do the following: after Black has played Be6 and Qd7 (intending Bh3), play Re1 and if Black actually plays Bh3, then you respond with Bh1, thus keeping your white-squared bishop on the board. Note that playing Re1 does weaken the f2 square, which may or may not be pertininent in your particular game.

can you show a game that does this or a board position???

Originally posted by jvanhine
can you show a game that does this or a board position???

[Event "HUN-chT2 9899"]
[Site "Hungary"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Kohlrusz,Zoltan"]
[Black "Meszaros,Robert"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A26"]
1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 d6 5.Nf3 e5 6.d3 Nc6 7.Bd2 Be6 8.0-0 0-0
9.Rb1 Qd7 10.Re1 h6 11.b4 e4 12.b5 Ne7 13.Nd4 d5 14.Nxe6 fxe6 15.dxe4 Nxe4 16.Nxe4 dxe4
17.Bb4 Qe8 18.Bxe4 Qf7 19.Rf1 Rad8 20.Qc2 Nf5 21.Bxf5 Qxf5 22.Qxf5 Rxf5 23.Rbd1 Rd4 24.Rxd4 Bxd4
25.e3 Bc5 26.Bc3 Rf7 27.Rd1 Kf8 28.Bd4 Bxd4 29.Rxd4 Ke7 30.f4 Rf5 31.e4 Rc5 32.e5 a6
33.a4 axb5 34.axb5 c6 35.bxc6 Rxc6 36.Kg2 Rb6 37.Kh3 Rb4 38.Rd6 Rxc4 39.Rb6 Rc7 40.Kg4 Kf7
41.h4 Re7 42.h5 Kg7 43.hxg6 Kxg6 44.f5+ Kf7 45.f6 Rd7 46.Kh5 Rd4 47.Rxb7+ Kf8 48.Kxh6 Re4
49.Kg5 Re3 50.g4 Rg3 51.Kh5 Kg8 52.g5 1-0

In this game, White played 10.Re1 intending to meet 10...Bh3 with 11.Bh1

Position after 9...Qd7

this is a similar variation i'm wondering about. so heres some examples. c4 e5 g3 Nf6 Bg2 Nc6 Nc3 Bc5 a3 0-0 Nge2 d6 0-0 a6 a3 Bf5. in this case would it be better to play h3 or Re1? in the english opening i have never played Re1 with that intention but it does have some merit from what i see from it. but then again it hinders the f4 pawn push. also in a variation like c4 e5 g3 Nc6 Nc3 g6 e4 d6 Nge2 Bg7 d3 0-0 0-0 Bd7 is h3 a good move? i know that Be6 the book reply is Nd5. with a closed pawn position like this i figure trading off the white bishop would only be good for white. but in the other variation where the center is not locked up it may be good to play h3. any thoughts on that?

another thing to concider i play the variations where the knight goes to e2 not f3 unless its the c6 and e6 variations.

Originally posted by kmac27
so when white fianchettoes the white bishop i know a key thing is to keep it on the board and not trade it for blacks white bishop. so when black moves the white bishop off the 8th rank then is h3 almost an automatic move if there is no other threat?

kmac27

Look up some of Tony Miles games in the English.

Originally posted by kmac27
this is a similar variation i'm wondering about. so heres some examples. c4 e5 g3 Nf6 Bg2 Nc6 Nc3 Bc5 a3 0-0 Nge2 d6 0-0 a6 a3 Bf5. in this case would it be better to play h3 or Re1? in the english opening i have never played Re1 with that intention but it does have some merit from what i see from it. but then again it hinders the f4 pawn push. also in a vari ...[text shortened]... er variation where the center is not locked up it may be good to play h3. any thoughts on that?

I don't have any recent books on these lines, but in the late 1970s and early 1980s, IM Watson published a 3-volume hardback set on the English which was considered the most complete authority on the opening at the time. I do own one of the volumes "English with 1...P-K4" (yes, it is in descriptive notation!) and looked up the two lines you asked about. I would mention that although these books are dated, in one of the reviews below, IM Watson states that evaluations in the English have changed much less than in other openings.

With regards to 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.e4 Nge7 (I'm guessing you meant this rather than the inferior 5...Nf6) 6.Nge2 0-0 7.d3 d6 8.0-0 Be6, Watson does states that 9.Nd5 is the main line, but also indicates that 9.h3 is quite reasonable and references a couple of games of GM Hort (1-0 vs Browne, 1976 and 1/2-1/2 vs. Spassky, 1977). I'd be very surprised if the move hasn't been played many times since.

I had somewhat greater difficulty in drawing conclusions in the line where Black plays an early Bc5. Watson cites a bunch of games that generally ended up well for White. In these games, sometimes White did play h3 and sometimes Black's Bh3 "threat" was simply ignored and White had a strong initiative on either the queenside or the center.

From looking through quite a few games in the book, I have concluded that the Re1 maneuver is much more likely to be reasonable in the lines where the e-pawn remains on e2. If White has played e3 (or e4) and Nge2, your decision should be between playing h3 or saving the tempo and allowing Bh3. I hope that answers your question.

I found some more recent books on this line:
The Dynamic English; Tony Kosten; 144 pages; Gambit, 1999
Gambit Guide to the English Opening: 1…e5; Carsten Hansen; 256 pages; Gambit, 1999
IM Watson reviewed these two books here:
http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/jwatson17.html
You might be interested to know that the Kosten book is a repertoire book for White and advocates the Botvinnik system (c4 + g3 + e4) against several Black setups.

And even more recently:
STARTING OUT: THE ENGLISH; Neil McDonald; 191 pages; Everyman Chess (2003)
ENGLISH …e5; Raetsky & Chetverik; 208 pages; Everyman Chess (2003)
IM Watson reviewed these two books here:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jw/watson_latest_review.html

Finally, as far as the suggestion by Zoot to study the games of GM Miles (deceased 2001), there can be no doubt it would benefit you to do so. However, I see no reason to accord his games some special significance over the games of other 2600+ GMs such as Bareev, Gurevich, Jobava, or Seirawan (let alone the games of 2700+ players Ivanchuk, Karpov, Kasparov, or Leko), so study the games of whichever GM suits you. Incidentally, I was unable to find many games by the players above which involved c4 + g3 + e4, but several of them frequently played c4 + g3 + e3 (e.g. Ivanchuk, Gurevich, and Seirawan).

i do have kostons book but only sometimes does it play h3 and sometimes it does not. also miles games are not going to help me when studying that much at the moment because i use a different style of the opening than he does.