Improvement on a philidor line?

I've been looking at this very sharp line in the philidor lately:

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 exd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 Be7
6. Bf4 O-O
7. Qd2 d5!?
8. Ndb5

Now there are 2 valid possibilities for black: 8. ...c6 and 8. ...Bb4.
If white plays very accurately after 8. ...c6 he will obtain a large advantage.

So I tried to find some improvements in the line with 8. ...Bb4. It continues 9. O-O-O! (Nxc7? leads to lots of complications, but if black plays correctly he will get a forced advantage) c6 10. Nc7 Nxe4 11. Qe3.



Now: A) 11. ...Bxc3?! 12. bxc3 g5 13. Qxe4! (Bg3? f5! Nxa8 f4 is unclear at best) leads to a very good endgame to white. This has been played once so far, I'll give the rest of the moves: 13. ...Qxc7 14.Qxh7+ Kxh7 15.Bxc7 Bf5 16.f3 Nd7 17.g4 Bg6 18.h4 gxh4 19.c4 Rac8 20.Rxh4+ Kg7 21.Ba5 f6 22.Bd3 Kf7 23.f4 Be4 24.g5 Rce8 25.Bf1 Rh8 1-0 Gyimesi - Nevednichy, 2004

B) 11. ...Bc5!? is an improvement in my opinion: 12. Qxe4 Qxc7 13. Bxc7 dxe4 14. Nxe4 Bb6 15. Bxb6 axb6 16. a3. This endgame seems to be alot better than the one in A). But according to IM Seel white is clearly better because white can put his knight on d6 and seriously wreak havoc in black's camp.
I don't agree with this though, I think black has a very solid position after b5, Na6-c5 and Be6.
any opinions about or improvements in this line?

Originally posted by schakuhr
I've been looking at this very sharp line in the philidor lately:

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 exd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 Be7
6. Bf4 O-O
7. Qd2 d5!?
8. Ndb5

Now there are 2 valid possibilities for black: 8. ...c6 and 8. ...Bb4.
If white plays very accurately after 8. ...c6 he will obtain a large advantage.

So I tried to find some improvements in t ...[text shortened]... y solid position after b5, Na6-c5 and Be6.
any opinions about or improvements in this line?

After 11...Bc5 12. Qxe4 Qxc7 13. Bxc7 dxe4 14. Nxe4 Bb6 15. Bxb6 axb6 16. a3 white have some advantage due to their more active pieces, but black can defend.

I would suggest for white 15.Bg3 (instead of 15.Bxb6) - in that line black will have more problems as they will need a tme to develop rook on a8.

It is amazing how a line once considered inferior is still quite formidable. The phildor defence reminds me of an army dug-in for defensive purposes... it is a tad passive.

Originally posted by ChessJester
It is amazing how a line once considered inferior is still quite formidable. The phildor defence reminds me of an army dug-in for defensive purposes... it is a tad passive.

If you know how to play it (as black), it's a secret weapon. Many people will think "ha! the inferior philidor defense!", then contemptuously trot out a number of moves, and find themselves in a losing position quite quickly.
Many e4-players never took a serious look at it and, well, they'll have to pay the consequences 😉

Originally posted by schakuhr
If you know how to play it (as black), it's a secret weapon. Many people will think "ha! the inferior philidor defense!", then contemptuously trot out a number of moves, and find themselves in a losing position quite quickly.
Many e4-players never took a serious look at it and, well, they'll have to pay the consequences 😉

Right you are - Philidor is much better than it`s reputation.

Yup, I agree. I am playing this line despite its reputation, and I like the possibilities. If white pushes too hard, you can often break out with advantage. If he is too meek, you can equalize.

The only really nasty about the line is

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. Ng5 O-O 7. Bxf7+
Rxf7 8. Ne6 Qe8 9. Nxc7 Qd8 10. Nxa8

but even there, black gets some active counterplay.

Originally posted by schakuhr
I've been looking at this very sharp line in the philidor lately:

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 exd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. Nc3 Be7
6. Bf4 O-O
7. Qd2 d5!?
8. Ndb5

Now there are 2 valid possibilities for black: 8. ...c6 and 8. ...Bb4.
If white plays very accurately after 8. ...c6 he will obtain a large advantage.

So I tried to find some improvements in t ...[text shortened]... y solid position after b5, Na6-c5 and Be6.
any opinions about or improvements in this line?

Don't get too excited on your improvement 11.....Bc5. That is the recommended continuation in Modern Chess Openings. If you have MCO-14, it's on page 130, subnote (t).

Originally posted by Golub
Yup, I agree. I am playing this line despite its reputation, and I like the possibilities. If white pushes too hard, you can often break out with advantage. If he is too meek, you can equalize.

The only really nasty about the line is

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7 5. Bc4 Be7 6. Ng5 O-O 7. Bxf7+
Rxf7 8. Ne6 Qe8 9. Nxc7 Qd8 10. Nxa8

but even there, black gets some active counterplay.

I like to play positions after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 Nbd7. But white can play 3.dxe5 which I dont like. Thats the reason why i prefer another move order 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 (4.dxe5 dxe5 5.Qxd8 Kxd8 is not too dangerous) Nbd7.

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
Don't get too excited on your improvement 11.....Bc5. That is the recommended continuation in Modern Chess Openings. If you have MCO-14, it's on page 130, subnote (t).

Read more carefully - he did mention that 11...Bc5 was analysed by IM Seel.

Originally posted by Korch
Right you are - Philidor is much better than it`s reputation.

Philidor type structures are important to study even if you don't play it as black. It's very solid and it's ideas can be used in many openings, like the classical line of the Pirc defence, when black plays e5.

Originally posted by Korch
Read more carefully - he did mention that 11...Bc5 was analysed by IM Seel.

Hmmmm, yes, that's true, but you missed my point. If the line is covered in the hoary old MCO, then it's nothing to get excited about and decry as some new exciting variation.

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
Hmmmm, yes, that's true, but you missed my point. If the line is covered in the hoary old MCO, then it's nothing to get excited about and decry as some new exciting variation.

Where did he wrote that its "new exiting variation" ? Why cant you talk about evaluation and/or improvement of these lines instead of fault-finding?

Originally posted by Korch
Where did he wrote that its "new exiting variation" ? Why cant you talk about evaluation and/or improvement of these lines instead of fault-finding?

That would have been insinuated in the title of the post "Improvement on a Philidor line"?
Perhaps new and exciting was a bit much, but an "improvement" that is touted as new that MCO covers is no great discovery.

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
That would have been insinuated in the title of the post "Improvement on a Philidor line"?
Perhaps new and exciting was a bit much, but an "improvement" that is touted as new that MCO covers is no great discovery.

What is your opinion about the line with 7. ...d5 ?