Abiogenesis, evolution and morality

Originally posted by sonship
I don't reduce my fear to being only the chemicals of human sweat.

I have been thinking this one over. Do you seriously believe that sweat causes fear? Or did you not think before you posted that?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have been thinking this one over. Do you seriously believe that sweat causes fear? Or did you not think before you posted that?

I have been thinking this one over.
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Me too. We Christians think things over, you know?

Do you seriously believe that sweat causes fear?
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You were complaining about strawman arguments.
This seems a loaded question or a strawman argument.

I reduced my mortal [edited] fear to sweat to see how the parallel worked with another emotion like love. A relationship between love and chemicals I would never deny. I would never reduce love to be ultimately only chemicals as the following statement leads me to believe -

"Love is chemical"

That was your statement.
Chemical reactions and chemical properties may be associated with the emotion of love. But to say merely "Love is chemical" is an over simplification and invites a protest.


Or did you not think before you posted that?
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I am not a materialist. And while I recognize a correlation between immaterial aspects of the human psychology and chemicals I would not reduce emotions to those material entities with such a statement as "Love is chemical".

I like brevity too. But using it to be sensational, which I think you do, is only good for provoking. I count many of your generalizations to merely function as provocative statements.

"Go get more education" usually follows these kinds of provocations like "Love is chemical". The old carrot on the stick - ie. "you don't know enough yet. You don't know enough yet. you still don't know enough yet."

IE. "You don't understand evolution. "

I think you mean only those who do not understand evolution do not believe in evolution.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] If you're an atheist i'll eat my hat.
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I don't know what the poster is. S/He merely SAID s/he did not mention God.


God has fueled every question you've asked here.
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He just said he didn't mention God.


...[text shortened]... think, is SELF devaluing.

What dignity did a slime or primordial muddy goo bestow upon you ?

Not wishing to question your perception, but I thought it pretty obvious from his OP that his question came from a theist. I know you stick pretty rigidly to what is written in the bible, but perhaps you need to develop your ability to 'read between the lines.'

And yes, I do resent his implied notion that 'take away God' and what is the point loving each other. As an atheist, God has no place whatsoever in my life and I don't believe my love for my family or friends is in any way diminished by this. And bringing God into this human love doesn't bring dignity, it merely dilutes it, has us believing we are not capable of it on our own. Believing in God is SELF devaluing, not denying him.

Originally posted by sonship
I reduced my mortal [edited] fear to sweat to see how the parallel worked with another emotion like love.

Except you really messed up the parallel, I am thinking it might have been deliberate to try and make fun of my claim. It backfired.

IE. "You don't understand evolution. "
Yes, you don't.
Yet you frequently make claims about it that are invalid if you don't.

I think you mean only those who do not understand evolution do not believe in evolution.
For a start evolution isn't a religion, and anyone who understands it, knows that much. Anyone who understands it, accepts that it takes place.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke

Not wishing to question your perception, but I thought it pretty obvious from his OP that his question came from a theist. I know you stick pretty rigidly to what is written in the bible, but perhaps you need to develop your ability to 'read between the lines.'
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To the question of "Do you take the Bible literally?" I would answer that I take the Bible at face value. When it seems to mean literally, I try to take it as how the writer means it to be taken. There is also poetry, analogy, parable, opinion and other kinds of human expressions.

So I don't think "rigid" is how I take the Bible. As for reading between the lines ? I believe in reading between the lines. But I think it is important that FIRST you be able to read the lines.

Some people claiming to read between the lines, I think, mean to not read the lines in the name of "reading between."

As an atheist, God has no place whatsoever in my life and I don't believe my love for my family or friends is in any way diminished by this. And bringing God into this human love doesn't bring dignity, it merely dilutes it, has us believing we are not capable of it on our own. Believing in God is SELF devaluing, not denying him.
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Okay. But you haven't really explained how you deriving your existence from goo, stone, mud alone bestows upon you more value or dignity than goo, stone or mud.

I think you might contemplate that some more.

You see I look at you and I see God. Maybe physically I don't see God. But I "see" God on your intrinsic human nature.

The sense of intrinsic value and dignity I associate with you because you, like me, were made in the image of God.

But if you are just lucky mud or lucky swampy soup, I am not sure why you should be thought of more value than that. So I am sticking to you being made in the image of God as the lines of the bible tell me in Genesis 1:26,27.

Originally posted by twhitehead

For a start evolution isn't a religion, and anyone who understands it, knows that much. Anyone who understands it, accepts that it takes place.
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To some people it is their replacement for God. And to some people it is their religion.

Now I will simply reciprocate and suggest that you go learn more.
You go get more education about it.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Not wishing to question your perception, but I thought it pretty obvious from his OP that his question came from a theist. I know you stick pretty rigidly to what is written in the bible, but perhaps you need to develop your ability to 'read between the lines.'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... you being made in the image of God as the lines of the bible tell me in Genesis 1:26,27.[/b]

It isn't where we come from that matters sir, it's where we're heading.

It genuinely saddens me that you don't get that.

Originally posted by sonship
To some people it is their replacement for God. And to some people it is their religion.

Name one person in each category.

Now I will simply reciprocate and suggest that you go learn more.
You go get more education about it.
Huh? Learn more about what?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
As I say, 'survival of the fittest' still 'lurks' in humanity, so your right to club me over the head for my steak has be superseded by the progress of our intellectually derived morality that has allowed us to empathize and put ourselves in the place of the person being clubbed. We are now more likely to buy or share the steak.

As an atheist, I don't deal in absolutes.

So no absolutes equals no absolute morality, which means no absolute right or wrong?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
So no absolutes equals no absolute morality, which means no absolute right or wrong?

What's an "absolute right or wrong"?

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Not wishing to question your perception, but I thought it pretty obvious from his OP that his question came from a theist. I know you stick pretty rigidly to what is written in the bible, but perhaps you need to develop your ability to 'read between the lines.'
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... you being made in the image of God as the lines of the bible tell me in Genesis 1:26,27.[/b]

"Okay. But you haven't really explained how you deriving your existence from goo, stone, mud alone bestows upon you more value or dignity than goo, stone or mud.

I think you might contemplate that some more."


bob and bobby meet while both sitting on the same large rock that over looks the sea. they fall in love and start meeting at the rock every day, one day while sitting on the rock, bob proposes to bobby, bobby says yes (phew!) and they get married. the rock is a very important magical place that holds a lot of meaning to them both, they visit every week and when bob dies, bobby spreads his ashes over the rock, bobby continues to visit the rock every week until she dies.......

did the rock ever have value?

Originally posted by stellspalfie

bob and bobby meet while both sitting on the same large rock that over looks the sea. they fall in love and start meeting at the rock every day, one day while sitting on the rock, bob proposes to bobby, bobby says yes (phew!) and they get married. the rock is a very important magical place that holds a lot of meaning to them both, they visit every week and when bob dies, bobby spreads his ashes over the rock, bobby continues to visit the rock every week until she dies.......

did the rock ever have value?

Sure, the rock had value.

Bob and Bobby had more value.
The rock is used to commemorate the preciousness of their lives and their love.

It was not the other way around IMO.
Had their lives and love existed to commemorate the big rock then it may have been the other way around, ie. with the rock having greater value.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] bob and bobby meet while both sitting on the same large rock that over looks the sea. they fall in love and start meeting at the rock every day, one day while sitting on the rock, bob proposes to bobby, bobby says yes (phew!) and they get married. the rock is a very important magical place that holds a lot of meaning to them both, they visit every we ...[text shortened]... the big rock then it may have been the other way around, ie. with the rock having greater value.

value is given by people and it varies from individual to individual. the bob's give the rock a lot of value, to others the rock has no value. there is no intrinsic value to anything, it is just a product of the mind.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
It isn't where we come from that matters sir, it's where we're heading.

It genuinely saddens me that you don't get that.

You know where we are heading?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
value is given by people and it varies from individual to individual. the bob's give the rock a lot of value, to others the rock has no value. there is no intrinsic value to anything, it is just a product of the mind.

So no matter is done to anyone or anything doesn't matter because all value really is just
a product of the mind? We get to make it up as we go because it is as we want it to be
so it is?