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05 Jan 15
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:11-13 God provides pastor-teachers to accurately communicate His Word for spiritual growth.
Of course the Ephesians 4:11-13 is quite important. Now let's look at Paul's word to the elders of one of those churches in light of what I wrote above about feeding and eating Christ.
Acts 20:28 [/B]
[b]King James 2000 Bible
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.
American King James Version
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.
American Standard Version
Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.
FEED ... the church of the Lord" Amen ?
To be fair, a number of English translations, including my favorite, say "shepherd" rather than "feed". But I think the point is made.
The teaching should include nourishing, feeding, conveying spiritual sustenance. Within the good teaching should be the taking in of the living Person of Christ.
Do you think the first thing to tell new believers is to know a certain hierarchy structure and recognize official lines of authority ?
"Now, you must realize that this person is your official Pastor/Teacher."
I think the knew believer, like a newborn babe, will know where he is getting his spiritual hunger satisfied in their shepherding. Learning to recognize some badge of official authority is not the first thing they need to know.
You simply cannot get away with eating for spiritual growth in the New Testament. Not that I think you mean to. But I know lines of hierarchical authority are very important to you. But the Body of Christ is an organism more than a religious organization.
Ephesians 4:11-16 shows the church is an organic body where the joints impart a rich supply throughout to cause the growth of itself -
"Out from whom [Christ the Head] all the Body, being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (v.16)
The pastor / teacher not only feeds but teaches OTHERS to do what he does. This is critical. Otherwise you do not get "each one part" supplying and causing the growth.
The gifted members teach all the members to do what they do - "He himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS UNTO THE WORK OF MINISTRY, unto the building up of the Body of Christ."
How one reads this passage is very important. The proper understanding is not about a hierarchy being set in place. No, no, ... it is about certain gifted ones perfecting the saints to do the word of ministry. They are always perfect the members to do what they themselves do.
When people boast about their Pastor, I don't care about any official position of religious authority. I care whether they FEED in their teaching. And I care if they perfect other saints to do the work of ministry for the building up of the Body.
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Now let's talk about accurate teaching.
The new believers is to receive, as Grampy emphasizes, good and accurate teaching. There is no question about this. A few comments I would make.
1.) No good teaching should transcend the importants of the pure word of God itself. Yes, cutting the word straight with accurate teaching is crucial. But a believer will not know if it is good teaching or not unless the believer knows what is there in the Bible.
2.) We all make mistakes. The Bible is infallible. The interpretations of the Bible are not infallible. They should be accurate, feeding, and draw us closer to Christ. But James says all the teachers are capable of making mistakes.
I would not teach any new believer that an infallible interpreter of the Bible should be expected.
3.) If a teaching warms up his heart towards Jesus Christ and causes him to depend upon God, it is at least a safe teaching. Even if it is not that accurate, it is at least safe.
4.) If a teaching cools down one's heart towards Christ and encourages him to be independent from God, ie. lukewarm or distrustful towards Jesus, no matter how good and accurate it sounds, there is something wrong with it.
5.) What the ministers minister is the living Spirit, the Person of Christ whom they themselves LIVE. Paul taught what he lived. Once you live Christ when you teach about Christ it will have weight.
6.) Everything should be checked with the word of God. Everything received in teaching should be confirmed with the Bible. If it doesn't line up with the Bible at best, its not that important. And at worst it could be a trick of the enemy. Somewhere along that spectrum it lies.
7.) Once one receives light and truth from the Bible one should walk in that truth. Obedience brings about growth. If the truth is not applied with the empowering of the Holy Spirit it amounts to much vain knowledge. And mere knowledge, even if accurate, will usually not change the way a person lives.
For this reason God dispenses light a little at a time. He observes how we handle the light that He gave. If you handled it well then He will dispense more light. If you do not handle the application of light well, He may just stop speaking to you. Why should He waste His light knowing that you will not walk in His light.
Light is something you can apply personally and walk in.
That should be enough for this post.
05 Jan 15
"The Word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 / "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16-17 / Only through learning Bible doctrine do believers in Christ ever fulfill their personal destinies: becoming mature and consistently glorifying God in time. Just as sheep are totally dependent upon their shepherds to lead them to daily water and food, God the Holy Spirit provides believers in Christ who desire to grow in grace to maturity their own pastor-teachers for the purpose. No exceptions.
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05 Jan 15
3 edits
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"The Word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of the soul and the spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
Amen!
/ "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God might be mature, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Amen again. "ALL Scripture is God breathed and profitable ..."
Profitable for teaching and profitable for "inhaling".
Amen. No argument.
/ Only through learning Bible doctrine do believers in Christ ever fulfill their personal destinies: becoming mature and consistently glorifying God in time. Just as sheep are totally dependent upon their shepherds to lead them to daily water and food, God the Holy Spirit provides believers in Christ who desire to grow in grace to maturity their own pastor-teachers for the purpose. No exceptions.
If you mean that God provides someone in the clergy class with a Reverend in front of their name, that would be saying too much.
No believer has to wait until he is under some Reverend So and So that some seminary made an official professional spiritual person. That is the clergy/laity system of degraded Christianity as a man invented hierarchical class.
We are all brothers. You may be a brother with training in Greek and in Hebrew. But you are still just a brother.
In the local churches around the world we have very good teaching. But we have left the clerical class of calling one another Reverend, or Father, or holding that there is a professional meditorial class. It doesn't matter how good someone's teaching is. His being a shepherd is about what he or she does in Christ and by Christ the living Spirit rather than an official title of authority - ie. Official - "Pastor Jones" or "Pastor Williams".
We are all brothers. I do not submit to any man merely because he has a man made title of "Pastor/Teacher So and So."
If he feeds and shepherds well then he just does.
If he does not, no label of "Pastor/Teacher Whoever" endows him with authority.
If he feeds us with Christ, we will listen. But he is just a brother. She is just a sister. They are just functioning members of the Body of Christ.
06 Jan 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDo you see yourself as some kind of 'cyber-pastor', or a teacher, or a self-appointed authority of some kind? Do you believe a "function" has been bestowed upon you by "the Holy Spirit in the Church Age"?
Pastor: Authority within a Local Church. Teacher: Function as bestowed by the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. The Pastor-Teacher's full time responsibility is to study and teach serious students. Others have gifts of administration and helps.
06 Jan 15
Originally posted by divegeester"Pastor: Authority within a Local Church. Teacher: Function as bestowed by the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. The Pastor-Teacher's full time responsibility is to study and teach serious students. Others have gifts of administration and helps."
John the Baptist.
"John the Baptist" was a forerunner of Christ. The Dispensation of the Hypostatic Union or Incarnation or first advent of Christ concluded in A.D. 30. The Church Age: From A.D. 30 until the Rapture of the Church. Anything further?
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06 Jan 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyWhy do you capitalize "Local Church ?"
"Pastor: Authority within a Local Church. Teacher: Function as bestowed by the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. The Pastor-Teacher's full time responsibility is to study and teach serious students. Others have gifts of administration and helps."
"John the Baptist" was a forerunner of Christ. The Dispensation of the Hypostatic Union or Incarnatio ...[text shortened]... A.D. 30. The Church Age: From A.D. 30 until the Rapture of the Church. Anything further?
I see you are quoting something.
06 Jan 15
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipOriginally posted in reply to divegeester
Why do you capitalize "Local Church ?"
I see you are quoting something.
"Pastor: Authority within a Local Church. Teacher: Function as bestowed by the Holy Spirit in the Church Age. The Pastor-Teacher's full time responsibility is to study and teach serious students. Others have gifts of administration and helps."
"John the Baptist" was a forerunner of Christ. The Dispensation of the Hypostatic Union or Incarnation or first advent of Christ concluded in A.D. 30. The Church Age: From A.D. 30 until the Rapture of the Church. Anything further?"
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Yes, sonship, "Local Church" is in upper/lower case to accentuate its importance in God's Plan and to give it equal emphasis with "Pastor-Teacher". The quotation marks indicate the phrase appears three posts above.
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07 Jan 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI know the term "local church" became a "hot item on the market" ever since the publication of the book "The Normal Christian Church Life" .
Christians in the denominations said "Now here is a good term. Let's start to call these divisions local churches."
If you do not mean "one city - one church" then you are using a buzzword phrase "Local Church" without realizing what Watchman Nee MEANT by using that phrase in that ground breaking book.
To stand as the local church firstly means that in a locality ALL Christians are accepted as members of that church because they are in that locality.
How the phrase has been adopted by eager Christians has not been according as it was laid out in that signature book "The Normal Christian Church Life". What some well meaning yet erroneous clergymen begin to "borrow" from those messages was the tendency to call the denominations "local churches".
Don't just take my word for this. Read the book. I don't think you can fail to be edified. And I think, you probably are not familiar with it.
The Normal Christian Church Life by Watchman Nee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=228A04
Here is the Preface to the Edition published by Living Stream Ministry
The contents of this book, with the exception of some minor adjustments to British punctuation, expressions, idioms, and spellings, have been taken directly from the edition published by Watchman Nee in England in 1939 under the title Concerning Our Missions. The 1939 English edition presents Watchman Nee’s own work in the English language; he was directly responsible for its translation and editing. Any differences between the English and Chinese editions reflect Watchman Nee’s own revisions.
07 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonshipThe Epistles of Paul developed the doctrine of the church as seen in his letters to seven Gentile churches in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica long before books by authors in recent history. It's still the Church Age.
I know the term "local church" became a "hot item on the market" ever since the publication of the book "The Normal Christian Church Life" .
Christians in the denominations said "Now here is a good term. Let's start to call these divisions local churches."
If you do not mean "one city - one church" then you are using a buzzword phrase "Local C ...[text shortened]... differences between the English and Chinese editions reflect Watchman Nee’s own revisions. [/quote]
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07 Jan 15
4 edits
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThe epistles of Paul also spoke clearly about Justification by Faith in Romans and in Galatians. In spite of this for 1,000 years about these truths were neglected by large portions of Christiandom.
The Epistles of Paul developed the doctrine of the church as seen in his letters to seven Gentile churches in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colosse, and Thessalonica long before books by authors in recent history. It's still the Church Age.
Martin Luther wrote about Justification by Faith and did not shrug the responsibility off because Paul already wrote in his epistles about these truths.
There was the need for recovery. That was not Luther teaching new truths. That was Luther faithfully recovering neglected truths which led to the Reformation.
So in that spirit I recommended the book focused on the recovery of vital church truths largly neglected for centuries.
But I do not plan to beg you to read. If you feel you have nothing to gain from my recommendation, so be it.
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07 Jan 15
4 edits
Originally posted by sonshipTypo Correction: "word of ministry" was meant to be "work of ministry"
[quote] "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which b ...[text shortened]... I care if they perfect other saints to do the work of ministry for the building up of the Body.
How one reads this passage is very important. The proper understanding is not about a hierarchy being set in place. No, no, ... it is about certain gifted ones perfecting the saints to do the work [edited] of ministry. They [should] [edited] always [be] perfecting the members to do what they themselves do.