An Invitation

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Yes, mistakes happen. It isn't always easy protecting your mythology from fact finders.

Yes, mistakes happen. It isn't always easy protecting your mythology from fact finders.

Please enumerate your three top indisputable FACTS which you think are the most damaging to my Christian faith.

What three FACTS, beyond any possibility of controversy, are the most powerful refutations of the major tenets of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ?

Remember - FACTS . Don't just give me your own mythology.

Originally posted by sonship
Please enumerate your three top indisputable FACTS which you think are the most damaging to my Christian faith.

What three FACTS, beyond any possibility of controversy, are the most powerful refutations of the major tenets of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ?

Remember - FACTS. Don't just give me your own mythology.

I'm not aware of any facts that damage Christian faith, nor am I aware of any facts refuting the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Aside from Santa Claus, I ascribe to no mythology.

Originally posted by sonship

Please enumerate your three top indisputable FACTS which you think are the most damaging to my Christian faith.

.

3

Originally posted by HandyAndy
[b]I'm not aware of any facts that damage Christian faith, nor am I aware of any facts refuting the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Then why do you think I'm concerned with "protecting" my "mythology" from supposed fact finders ? I thought you had some devastating facts you found that needed me to "protect" my belief from.

What a let down.

Originally posted by sonship
Then why do you think I'm concerned with "protecting" my "mythology" from supposed fact finders ? I thought you had some devastating facts you found that needed me to "protect" my belief from.

What a let down.

The myth we were discussing was the Book of Genesis. The issue was the placement of dinosaurs.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
The myth we were discussing was the Book of Genesis. The issue was the placement of dinosaurs.

Since you did not witness the creation of the world you do not know that Genesis is a myth. I of course do not know either. But I admit up front that this is my faith.

What we have is reasonably strong science theories which theorize some very large scale extinctions with some widesread catastrophic earth destruction which took place in the very distant past, at least once, and perhaps more times.

And what we have in the Bible is that the earth became waste and empty sometime after the creation event of the whole universe.

That is unless you are not interpreting a unspecified gap of time between verse 1 and verse 2 which many Bible readers modern and ancient have understood there.

So I think modern science theories are inching closer to what we have in Genesis - a creation / destruction / reformation model of some type.

If you still have some discovered facts which render some problems to a creation / destruction / reformation, against which I am compelled to "protect" my faith, what are they ?

Do you know with some scientific certainty that the following sentence cannot be true ?

" In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. But the earth became waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Genesis 1:1,2 RcV)

Originally posted by sonship
Since you did not witness the creation of the world you do not know that Genesis is a myth. .

For all practical purposes of the word "know" we do know that Genesis is
a myth.

In the same way that we know the birth of Aphrodite is a myth or that
we know there is not a teapot in orbit around the sun.

To believe that the fairytale (I do not think it deserves the title "myth" )
you must dispense with reality and put any functioning brain-cells you
may have into neutral. It is utter, utter nonsense.

In comparison to Genesis the Virgin Birth looks like scientific fact.
(That is how absurd it is!)

Originally posted by sonship
Since you did not witness the creation of the world you do not [b] know that Genesis is a myth. I of course do not know either. But I admit up front that this is my faith.

What we have is reasonably strong science theories which theorize some very large scale extinctions with some widesread catastrophic earth destruction which took place in t ...[text shortened]... came waste and emptiness, and darkness was on the surface of the deep." (Genesis 1:1,2 RcV) [/b][/b]

There are no indisputable facts that prove or disprove the Genesis myth. You know that as well as I do.

The question is about the placement of dinosaurs. For the sake of argument, let's accept your
creation/destruction/reformation model. Where would you place the rise and fall of dinosaurs?
Please include scriptural references, if any.

Originally posted by HandyAndy

There are no indisputable facts that prove or disprove the Genesis myth. You know that as well as I do.

I can always ask to see. I can step out on a limb. Others asked might well propose something. I don't know unless I ask.

The question is about the placement of dinosaurs. For the sake of argument, let's accept your creation/destruction/reformation model. Where would you place the rise and fall of dinosaurs?

I think those animals may have been in a preadamic age. That is before the earth was made waste and empty. But I just don't know how long ago that may have been.

God's interest in Genesis is with man, with man, with man. So man is the solid focus of that account. As far as Genesis 1 and 2 is concerned God is not interested in the things before. Latter God reveals some things about the ancient enemy as it fits into the salvation plan.

Please include scriptural references, if any.

I have nothing there. What I would offer would be possibly more poetic and not conclusive. I can't help you there.

Maybe there is some significance I am not yet appreciative of, as serpents or reptiles often taking on a symbol of God's supernatural enemy. And God seems to have allowed Satan to use a snake.

Biologically, I use to have snakes for pets. So my fondness for snakes and my theological musings are in different compartments to me.

Originally posted by sonship
I think those animals may have been in a preadamic age. That is before the earth was made waste and empty. But I just don't know how long ago that may have been.

God's interest in Genesis is with man, with man, with man. So man is the solid focus of that account. As far as Genesis 1 and 2 is concerned God is not interested in the things before. Latter God reveals some things about the ancient enemy as it fits into the salvation plan.

Some things about man, but not much. Would you agree then that the Book of Genesis is incomplete and poorly written?

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Some things about man, but not much. Would you agree then that the Book of Genesis is incomplete and poorly written?

No I would not agee it is poorly written. I think its composition is practically miraculous.

That is economically states the things most foundational to the rest of the Bible in such concise terms is marvelous.

And when I get to the matter of the two trees, I am convinced that no human wisdom could have conceived that story. If man had been placed before a tree of GOOD and a tree of EVIL, as I would expect, then I might consider that philosophical imagination of human beings is at work.

But that is not what it says. And what it says, I think, portrays an higher intelligence than mankind and a higher authority is responsible for its composition.

You do not have Adam before a tree of good and a tree of evil. You have Adam before a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And though it is difficult to express why this impresses me it is one of the early passages in the Bible which convinces me that we are dealing with a book of divine origin.

Also all the "seeds" of truth developed throughout the rest of the Bible are found in Genesis.

In Genesis you have three important people -Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Abraham is a story of God calling a man and him following that call, reluctantly but following.

Isaac is a story of a man inheriting all the riches of his father.

Jacob is a story of a man chosen to be blessed before he was born and being transformed from a scoundrel to a prince of God (Israel).

The three men actually portray the experience of ONE man as it relates to God's full salvation. Though Abraham is first in the sequence from the standpoint of God's transcendence over time Jacob is first. For before God CALLED a man God CHOSE a man even before he was born.

"Because those whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers.

And those whom He predestinated, these He called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Romans 8:29,30)

We have in picture form God's full salvation of foreknowing, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification in the Genesis story of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You have three men as a full depiction of something written about thousand plus years latter by the Apostle Paul.

So I do not think we are dealing with a product out of human wisdom but inspired divinely by God.

You also have in Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a symbol of the Trinity. The Father as the source in Abraham, the Son as the inheritor of all the riches and wealth of the Father in Isaac, and finally the transforming work to change a man from a heel holder to a prince - the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of Jacob.

There is too much profound revelation in Genesis. But those with experience with God's salvation can readily recognize much of it.

It could be like playing a violin concerto to a cow for some people. They just have not recognized the form and beauty of what is being portrayed as a cow cannot make out anything about a violin concerto.

But we do not have to remain so dull.

Originally posted by sonship
No I would not agee it is poorly written. I think its composition is practically miraculous.

That is economically states the things most foundational to the rest of the Bible in such concise terms is marvelous.

And when I get to the matter of the two trees, I am convinced that no human wisdom could have conceived that story. If man had been placed ...[text shortened]... cow cannot make out anything about a violin concerto.

But we do not have to remain so dull.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. There seems to be hidden significance not apparent at first glance.

Originally posted by HandyAndy
Thanks for the thoughtful response. There seems to be hidden significance not apparent at first glance.

There is a unity to the whole Bible - all 66 books.

To make naked the evil enemy of God and man, whose past is obscured and rather covered by some shallow presentations of the very ancient past.

Satan was an angel created by God before He created the earth. The book of Job (38:4-7) tells us that when God laid the measure of the foundation of the earth, the sons of God (the angels) shouted for joy. This proves that God created the angels before He created the earth. From Ezekiel 28 we see that Satan was not only one of the angels, but the highest archangel, the head of all the angels.

Ezekiel 28 describes Satan's position in the universe before his rebellion and corruption. This whole chapter seems to speak about the king of Tyre. But verse 13 says, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God." If we read the context, we can see that this was not the Eden in which Adam was put. This Eden was not on the earth, but in the heavens, on the holy mountain of God.

"Every precious stone was thy covering." He was covered with precious stones. G. H. Pember says that this indicates his dwelling place. His dwelling was of precious stones.

"The service of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared with thee in the day thou wast created" (Heb.). In the ancient times, musical instruments such as tambourines and pipes were for kings (Dan. 3:5; 6:18). This indicates that Satan was a king, holding the highest position in that universe. This was why even the Lord Jesus called him "the ruler of this world" (John 12:31). The Apostle also calls him "the ruler of the authority of the air" (Eph. 2:2). Luke 4:5-6 also confirms this. "And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in a moment of time. And the Devil said to Him, To You I will give all this authority and their glory, because to me it has been delivered, and to whomever I want I give it." Was this a lie? If it was a lie the Lord Jesus surely would have rebuked Satan. Since the Lord did not rebuke him, it must be a fact. Satan, the Devil, told the Lord that all the kingdoms of the world and all their glory had been delivered to him. Satan also said, "to whomever I want I give it." When did God deliver all of this to Satan? This was definitely something pre-Adamic, before the world of Adam. By reading the full revelation of the Bible, we can realize that God did appoint Satan the head of that universe, and that God had delivered all created things in the heaven and on the earth into his hand. So he became "the ruler of this world." His position and rank were so high that even "Michael the archangel...did not dare to bring a reviling judgment against him" (Jude 9). Michael is one of the archangels (Dan. 10:13). His daring not to rebuke Satan proves that Satan's rank must be even higher than his. Thus, we can infer that Satan must be the highest archangel.

Verse 14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth." Satan was "the anointed cherub that covereth." This probably means that he covered (cf. Exo. 25:20) the ark of God in the heavens (Rev. 11:19). "And I have set thee so." God did this. God anointed and appointed the archangel to cover His ark. Ezekiel tells us that the cherubim bear God's glory (9:3; 10:18) and that they are very close to God's throne (10:1; 1:26). This shows that Satan, before his rebellion, when he was the anointed cherub covering God's ark, must have been very close to God, bearing God's glory. Ezekiel also tells us that the cherubim are the four living creatures which are of special use to God (10:20). Also the four living creatures in Ezekiel are similar to the four in Revelation (Ezek. 1:10, cf. Rev. 4:7) which took the lead among the creatures in worshipping God. This reveals that today's Satan, God's adversary, originally the anointed cherub, must have been specially appointed by God to be the head among His creatures, bearing His glory and leading them to worship Him. This may indicate that the anointed archangel also had the priesthood. He might have been the high priest in the universal worship of God.

"Thou wast upon the holy mountain of God." This certainly must be in the heavens. "Thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." In Exodus 24:10, 17, Moses, Aaron, and many others saw under God's throne some precious stones with the glory of God like burning fire. That must be the stones of fire. From this we may infer that the anointed cherub was also specially privileged to move in the realm where God's glory was.

Beside Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14:12 also helps us to see Satan's origin. It tells us that Satan was the "Daystar [for Lucifer according to Hebrew], son of the morning." Just as the daystar is the leading one among the stars, so Satan must be the head of all the angels. The title "son of the morning" shows that he was there early, in the morning of the universe. Thus, Satan, from the earliest days of the universe, was the head of the angels, bright as the daystar.

Satan's origin was wonderful. He was God's anointed cherub, the one closest to God, holding the highest position in God's creation. He had not only the kingship, but also the priesthood, the very position that we, God's redeemed people, have forever (Rev. 5:9-10; 20:4-6). But he was deprived of his position and offices when he rebelled against God. Now God has chosen us to be His priests and kings, to take over Satan's position and offices, to put him to shame, and to glorify God.

From The Life Study of Genesis (Chapter 2) by Witness Lee

Messages given beginning in 1974 in Anehiem California, USA.
[my bolding]

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

Originally posted by HandyAndy
The myth we were discussing was the Book of Genesis. The issue was the placement of dinosaurs.

Andy, "Dinosaurs are mentioned and described in Job 40: 15-24" Thread 162769 (Page 2)