Originally posted by divegeester I just don't see it as confusing and never have. Sometimes it can be helpful to ask a few questions:
Is a God someone who we worship?
How many Gods are there?
Is the "son" eternal?
Does the "son" have authority eternally?
When looking at these questions through the lenses of individual entities which appear on earth as described in the Bible it ...[text shortened]... ve us licence to invent more people in the Godhead.
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one.
I get your point, and you are in effect supporting the idea is that the whole thing is not easy to understand from a purely human point of view.
However your claim that it is the same person conflicts with eveything in the opening post about Christ was 'made', that Christ is the Son and God is his Father, that God has elevated him above the angels. Not to mention all the passages where things are known to God but not to Christ or the many times Christ said to pray to God and not to him. Seems to me that they have separate and distinct functions.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby During the Incarnation the humanity of Christ became lower than the angels; then through His resurrection, ascension and session became higher than the angels. (Hebrews 1:4, 2:9) The crucifixion had to precede His glorification*.
Edit Footnote: *Undiminished Deity and Perfect Humanity in One Person forever.
Higher than the angels but not equal to God in my estimation. Still under Gods subjection according the Bible.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie It is absolutely crystal clear.
1. Jesus was a created entity - Colossians 1:15,16
2. Father and son is simply the description of a relationship.
3. The term god simply means a might spiritual (sometimes human) entity. We have been preconditioned to think of it in terms of a deity, the Bible uses both. Its use does not necessitate that it is m ...[text shortened]... ore all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist. - Colossians 1:16
While I agree with most of that I would not agree with the implication that sometimes come across from the JWs that this is a matter that affects ones salvation.
Originally posted by Rajk999 I get your point, and you are in effect supporting the idea is that the whole thing is not easy to understand from a purely human point of view.
However your claim that it is the same person conflicts with eveything in the opening post about Christ was 'made', that Christ is the Son and God is his Father, that God has elevated him above the angels. Not to ...[text shortened]... said to pray to God and not to him. Seems to me that they have separate and distinct functions.
It is definitely not clear and I can see why the trinity doctrine has arisen. But at least you can see my point of view, thanks. It's enough for me, makes sense to me and supports my view of God.
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
This speaks of the incarnation of God as a man to be our Rede ...[text shortened]... or over three years now that is exactly what I have been doing. Don't you know Me yet Phillip ?"
This passage:
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father? (John 14:8,9)
.. cannot be interpreted to mean that God and Christ are not separate and distinct entities, because the Bible is even clearer that you CANNOT SEE GOD
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
and again
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.
Christ in speaking to Philip about knowing the will of God because he has seen Christ and he knows Christ. Those who know Christ are aware of Christ commandments and the sons of God follow Christ's commandments and therefore they indirectly know God.
Originally posted by Rajk999 While I agree with most of that I would not agree with the implication that sometimes come across from the JWs that this is a matter that affects ones salvation.
The issue has nothing to do with Jehovahs witnesses.
Originally posted by divegeester I'm not sure what you mean.
Do you think it's clear as crystal when there is this much dispute about it?
You made a fallacious argument, that being that just because people are debating an issue necessitates that the issue is somehow not crystal clear. This is not the case for so many reasons, wilful ignorance being just one example.
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke Why not? 10,000 Boro fans were.
😉
I hope Paul Lambert takes a team like Plymouth Argyll into the premiership and they relegate you back down by giving you a spanking on the last day of the season.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie You made a fallacious argument, that being that just because people are debating an issue necessitates that the issue is somehow not crystal clear. This is not the case for so many reasons, wilful ignorance being just one example.
So, you honestly think that the godhead is explained perfectly clearly in the bible and that all the people debating it are being wilfully ignorant. Except you of course?
Certainly not a simple doctrine.
26 May '15 19:20
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