20 Aug 16
Originally posted by divegeesterOn your first point, I believe it is essential to recognize the divine nature of the Christ.
In the wake of my exchanges with sonship trying to unequivocally establish if belief in the trinity was a dependency for salvation, I thought I'd set up a "catch-all" thread to see if anyone wanted to pitch up with their particular belief structure and see if they can convince the forum they have a case.
I doubt many will contribute but if you want t ...[text shortened]... able to give an unequivocal response.
Opinions, casual thoughts, disagreement...all welcome.
That's what the Apostle John was inspired to point out at John 1:1.
It's essential because we must worship God in spirit and TRUTH. See John 4:23.
Jesus is of divine nature but is not God the Father. They are 2 separate beings. John
even presents them that way at John 1:1 stating that "the Word was ...with... God and
the Word was a god." (not the God)
20 Aug 16
1 edit
Originally posted by roigamEN ARCHE EN HO LOGOS, KAI HO LOGOS EN PROS TON THEON, KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS
John even presents them that way at John 1:1 stating that "the Word was ...with... God and the Word was a god." (not the God)
It seems pretty clear that the translation of this was deliberately rendered differently from all other Bibles (and certain Bible scholars were deliberately misquoted and misrepresented to justify it) so as to create the New World Translation version which - it should come as no surprise - fits with your corporate organization's ideology.
http://www.letusreason.org/jw38.htm
http://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm
20 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFDid you ignore Luke's account?
Where did you get all that from? Three of the Gospels described the thieves as mocking Jesus - with one of them describing the mockery in detail. If the few words meant anything at all, they were surely saying that Jesus can forgive anyone He wants to regardless of the beliefs they profess or claim to profess - and He can do so even if they are not His followers ...[text shortened]... other two - apparently wants no part in the squeezing of your ideology out of those five lines.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkNo, of course not. Didn't you read what I wrote? Luke's account is part of what I'm talking about.
Did you ignore Luke's account?
As I said, "Three of the Gospels described the thieves as mocking Jesus [John's Gospel just ignores it altogether] - with one of them [Luke's] describing the mockery in detail. [...] There's nothing there [in Luke's] to go on regarding "good works". There's nothing there [in Luke's] to go on regarding "faith". [...] You're projecting an ideology onto what were a few sarcastic words of mockery aimed at Jesus."
20 Aug 16
#1 You must be born again ( born from above) Jesus words. God wakes the spiritually dead man
#2 Repentance is essential Turning away from evil or sin
#3 Once saved works are essential but this is a natural outgrowth of being saved or an
evidence of one's salvation ( Christians will still fail and fall short in some way )
#4 Being doctrinally correct ? Not necessary for Salvation but God will teach us and we should strive for truth and accuracy ( by reading and studying the bible )
#5 Being literally dunked in water not necessary for salvation but is symbolic to the old man being buried and the new man being raised with Christ ....being born again is being baptized by the Spirit ...being baptized in water is a public declaration of an internal truth
#6 belief in OSAS or the opposite not necessary for Salvation ....I think one's should always check themselves however
Ultimately God is sovereign and He can save or destroy whom He will and the Thief on the cross comes to mind as I see this being discussed .....Jesus chose to save him in an instant ....It just proves the sovereignty of God.....Look at the Apostle Paul perfect example of grace and mercy towards an individual who had murder in his heart ....of course we see the Good works of Paul after He was born again ....God literally slapped Paul down " A God Smack " I think many times people think God is some celestial Santa clause in the sky ....
Manny
Originally posted by roigamI have always found sectarian religionists (such as JWs , Mormons and also some individuals, such as was demonstrated by my exchanges on this topic with sonship) to be extremely furtive when it comes to clearly explaining what one has to do to, believe or acknowledge in order to be saved.
On your first point, I believe it is essential to recognize the divine nature of the Christ.
That's what the Apostle John was inspired to point out at John 1:1.
It's essential because we must worship God in spirit and TRUTH. See John 4:23.
Jesus is of divine nature but is not God the Father. They are 2 separate beings. John
even presents them tha ...[text shortened]... at John 1:1 stating that "the Word was ...with... God and
the Word was a god." (not the God)
Would you like to present a list of essentials necessary for salvation form your JW perspective? If so, can you give an unequivocal yes or no to each of mine in the OP and then any that you think I may have missed?
I'm not trying to catch you out, I am simply trying to get to the root of what various people truly believe without all the angsty protracted evasions. For example with JWs one area you all seem to feel uncomfortable discussing is whether or not a person has to be a member of the JW organisation in order to be saved - I contend that this is because saying "yes" is an admittance of your church membership based sectarianism, but saying "no" invalidates your belief that you are the only group of believers with the truth of God.
So, what is the list of minimum essentials for being saved?
20 Aug 16
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFSo when the thief asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom he was not displaying any faith in your opinion?
No, of course not. Didn't you read what I wrote? Luke's account is part of what I'm talking about.
As I said, "Three of the Gospels described the thieves as mocking Jesus [John's Gospel just ignores it altogether] - with one of them [Luke's] describing the mockery in detail. [...] There's nothing there [in Luke's] to go on regarding "good works". There's n ...[text shortened]... 're projecting an ideology onto what were a few sarcastic words of mockery aimed at Jesus."
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSuggestion; You may do better by pointing out to FMF exactly what the minimum entry level criteria for salvation the thief displayed. I gave you my view on this immediately, I'm not sure you have done so but I may have missed it, apologies if I have.
So when the theif asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom he was not displaying any faith in your opinion?
20 Aug 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkIt was mockery. The Gospels of Mark and Matthew corroborate this interpretation. Your interpretation is not corroborated by any of the Gospels.
So when the thief asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom he was not displaying any faith in your opinion?
Originally posted by FMFHold on so the thief who rebuked the others was mocking Jesus?
It was mockery. The Gospels of Mark and Matthew corroborate this interpretation. Your interpretation is not corroborated by any of the Gospels.
Luke 23:39-43New American Standard Bible (NASB)
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Originally posted by FMFYou are welcome to your opinion but according to Luke's account I disagree with your interpretation, as do all Bible scholars that I have read.
Yes. Clearly. And this is corroborated by Mark and Matthew.
As Matthew Henry says:
The conversion of the thief upon the cross, which is an illustrious instance of Christ’s triumphing over principalities and powers even when he seemed to be triumphed over by them. Christ was crucified between two thieves, and in them were represented the different effects which the cross of Christ would have upon the children of men, to whom it would be brought near in the preaching of the gospel. They were all malefactors, all guilty before God. Now the cross of Christ is to some a savour of life unto life, to others of death unto death. To them that perish it is foolishness, but to them that are saved it is the wisdom of God and the power of God.
(1.) Here was one of these malefactors that was hardened to the last. Near to the cross of Christ, he railed on him, as others did (Luke 23:39): he said, If thou be the Christ, as they say thou art, save thyself and us. Though he was now in pain and agony, and in the valley of the shadow of death, yet this did not humble his proud spirit, nor teach him to give good language, no, not to his fellow-sufferer. Though thou bray a fool in a mortar, yet will not his foolishness depart from him. No troubles will of themselves work a change in a wicked heart, but sometimes they irritate the corruption which one would think they should mortify. He challenges Christ to save both himself and them. Note, There are some that have the impudence to rail at Christ, and yet the confidence to expect to be saved by him; nay, and to conclude that, if he do not save them, he is not to be looked upon as the Saviour.
(2.) Here was the other of them that was softened at the last. It as said in Matthew and Mark that the thieves, even they that were crucified with him, reviled him, which some think is by a figure put for one of them, but others think that they both reviled him at first, till the heart of one of them was wonderfully changed, and with it his language on a sudden. This malefactor, when just ready to fall into the hands of Satan, was snatched as a brand out of the burning, and made a monument of divine mercy and grace, and Satan was left to roar as a lion disappointed of his prey. This gives no encouragement to any to put off their repentance to their death-bed, or to hope that then they shall find mercy; for, though it is certain that true repentance is never too late, it is as certain that late repentance is seldom true. None can be sure that they shall have time to repent at death, but every man may be sure that he cannot have the advantages that this penitent thief had, whose case was altogether extraordinary. He never had any offer of Christ, nor day of grace, before how: he was designed to be made a singular instance of the power of Christ’s grace now at a time when he was crucified in weakness. Christ, having conquered Satan in the destruction of Judas and the preservation of Peter, erects this further trophy of his victory over him in the conversion of this malefactor, as a specimen of what he would do. We shall see the case to be extraordinary if we observe...