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@ghost-of-a-duke saidI enjoy Camembert, but I prefer the blue and green hues adorning my moldy cheese. Gorgonzola is a soft cheese I delightfully enjoy. I enjoy sharp 'chatter' (cheddar) too, although it's not high on my preference list. But I can say that cheese is definitely one of my favorite foods. What would pizza be without mozzarella cheese? And needless to say, religiously, 'Pecorino Romano' is a strict culinary requirement for the traditional dish of Carbonara, as is also 'Guanciale', rather than plain swine belly bacon. We are in culinary heaven when dancing 'cheek' to cheek. As they say, when in Rome do like the Romans do.
You have a fondness for soft cheeses sir (including Camembert) when you really should be eating a strong piece of cheddar.
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@suzianne saidWhich piece?
Faith and knowledge are adjuncts. One can easily have both, and they amplify each other. They CAN stand alone, but when they do, one misses a portion of the complete picture. I know both you and KJ do not agree, but I maintain that you both are missing a piece of the puzzle as a result.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFaith is simply believing in something we hold true and I assume everything that you do, you do to validate your beliefs you believe in. The distinction between your views and mine are meaningless with respect to the word faith, you simply don’t want to acknowledge what you are doing is being done because you believe in what and how you go about it.
Your faith is a different animal to my scientific trust. You alone are trying to conflate the two.
We don’t start off with perfect knowledge we take steps to get to where we can believe in those things we hold true. You are simply unhappy with the notion that you have the same limitations the fathers of science had when they approached the universe for understanding.
Why bother looking for understanding if you think chaos due to the fickle nature of the gods were in charge? Law like structure comes from a law giver, and believers acted on faith, and science is born, it was born out of faith and science is trusted because we believe in it’s application, making our conclusions logically based, we have faith in it.
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@pettytalk saidPaul never met me, why don’t you just say what you think instead of being insidiously coy about it.
I wonder if KellyJay is aware of what the snake charmer, Paul, has to say about wisdom and knowledge, as related to his faith.
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@kellyjay saidYou should only be seeking after God, if you take your Paul at heart and mind.
Faith is simply walking out what is accepted as truth, as I pointed out to you we seek to understand the universe because we believe we can, there is faith there or it wouldn't happen. We set up means to validate our hypotheses because we believe it can be done, not only because we think we have something to validate but also because we believe what we are setting up can pr ...[text shortened]... ll in on what we want, that is the danger of seeing what is there, and rejecting the truth about it.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul addresses the Corinthians' fascination with human wisdom and knowledge, contrasting it with the wisdom of God. He emphasizes that the wisdom of God is not of this age and is beyond the comprehension of the rulers of this age, who crucified Jesus Christ, the embodiment of God's wisdom. This wisdom is eternal and surpasses human understanding, being revealed through the Spirit of God and the Word of God, which are sufficient for salvation and understanding God.
Paul contrasts this divine wisdom with the wisdom of the world, which is empirical and based on observable phenomena. He argues that the wisdom of God is not seen by the naked eye, heard with the ears, or fathomed by the natural mind, but is otherworldly and beyond human comprehension. This wisdom is not something that can be gained through human knowledge or wisdom but is revealed through the Spirit of God and the teachings of the apostles.
In essence, Paul teaches that true wisdom and knowledge come from God and are not to be sought in human wisdom or knowledge. Instead, they are received through faith in Jesus Christ and the teachings of the apostles, which are considered foolishness to the world but are the means by which God's wisdom is revealed to believers.
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@pettytalk saidI actually don’t think you grasp the basics of scripture so why would I take any advice from you on it?
You should only be seeking after God, if you take your Paul at heart and mind.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul addresses the Corinthians' fascination with human wisdom and knowledge, contrasting it with the wisdom of God. He emphasizes that the wisdom of God is not of this age and is beyond the comprehension of the rulers of this age, who crucified Jesus Christ, the embodiment of ...[text shortened]... onsidered foolishness to the world but are the means by which God's wisdom is revealed to believers.
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@kellyjay saidThis is what you are doing Kelly. You are taking the word 'faith' and using its differing definitions to dishonestly compare apples and oranges. Yes, the 'trust' I have in scientific knowledge could be linked by synonym to 'faith' (in that I have trust/faith in the evidence of science) but you then take another definition of faith that you apply to your own religious beliefs (that are not founded on verifiable evidence) and try to present them as the same. - They are not the same. Again, I trust in tested science. You have faith in something untestable and quite frankly contrary to everything we know about the world.
Faith is simply believing in something we hold true and I assume everything that you do, you do to validate your beliefs you believe in. The distinction between your views and mine are meaningless with respect to the word faith, you simply don’t want to acknowledge what you are doing is being done because you believe in what and how you go about it.
We don’t start off ...[text shortened]... because we believe in it’s application, making our conclusions logically based, we have faith in it.
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@pettytalk saidSo you do lean towards soft cheeses? (Blue or otherwise).
I enjoy Camembert, but I prefer the blue and green hues adorning my moldy cheese. Gorgonzola is a soft cheese I delightfully enjoy. I enjoy sharp 'chatter' (cheddar) too, although it's not high on my preference list. But I can say that cheese is definitely one of my favorite foods. What would pizza be without mozzarella cheese? And needless to say, religiously, 'Pecorino Ro ...[text shortened]... e in culinary heaven when dancing 'cheek' to cheek. As they say, when in Rome do like the Romans do.
Stilton should only be eaten at Christmas.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidNothing dishonest about what I have been saying, I am pointing out that each time we approach anything it is by faith we can see the truth of it. It is your belief that what you accept as truth doesn’t require faith that it should be accepted on face value without applying anything trustworthy simply to avoid the word faith in the context that word definition has had for centuries, to apply modern definitions to make your case.
This is what you are doing Kelly. You are taking the word 'faith' and using its differing definitions to dishonestly compare apples and oranges. Yes, the 'trust' I have in scientific knowledge could be linked by synonym to 'faith' (in that I have trust/faith in the evidence of science) but you then take another definition of faith that you apply to your own religious ...[text shortened]... have faith in something untestable and quite frankly contrary to everything we know about the world.
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@kellyjay saidWhen we make a cup of tea, the kettle that we boil the water in and the electricity which heats the element of the kettle (and so on) are inventions and creations of scientific human minds; adaptations of nature, one might say. We can have 'faith', if you choose to use that word, that the water will heat up when we put the kettle on, because it happens every time. To say that a god made the kettle, or the element, or the water, or the person who makes the tea, or indeed the tea itself, is a different kind of 'faith' altogether.
Nothing dishonest about what I have been saying, I am pointing out that each time we approach anything it is by faith we can see the truth of it. It is your belief that what you accept as truth doesn’t require faith that it should be accepted on face value without applying anything trustworthy simply to avoid the word faith in the context that word definition has had for centuries, to apply modern definitions to make your case.
We all know that you are constantly trying to stick religion and science together with blu - tac (can you still get blu - tac?) using your half - baked and ill - conceived logic, but unlike the kettle, none of it holds any water whatsoever.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidI only mentioned soft because you mentioned a French soft cheese. But I also mentioned Pecorino, which is a hard cheese, typically when aged. Whether it's hard or soft, if it's cheese, I like it. You well know that Pecorino gets its name because it's made from sheep's milk. Various regions in Italy make Pecorino cheese, and therefore, a region/area becomes a part of the name.
So you do lean towards soft cheeses? (Blue or otherwise).
Stilton should only be eaten at Christmas.
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@indonesia-phil saidWhen you take a cup of tea to the kettle, you do it after all, because you believe it will do what you want it to do, you are acting on faith, because you have faith in the process. Without faith in the process, you would have to do something else, it is a matter of trusting the process.
When we make a cup of tea, the kettle that we boil the water in and the electricity which heats the element of the kettle (and so on) are inventions and creations of scientific human minds; adaptations of nature, one might say. We can have 'faith', if you choose to use that word, that the water will heat up when we put the kettle on, because it happens every time. To s ...[text shortened]... alf - baked and ill - conceived logic, but unlike the kettle, none of it holds any water whatsoever.
Our knowledge comes when we realize whatever it is we are learning is true, and that knowledge comes from the faith that we have learned is true. As we learn the truth we believe in that which has been validated in our eyes, knowledge springs from faith.
If you attempt something that does not do what you want that knowledge is accepted on faith too, or you'd keep trying the same thing over and over getting the same results.
From faith comes knowledge, as we learn our trust is built up, you have bitten into the idea that "faith" is somehow a bad word because it has a modern spin separating it from reality's evidential realm, when in fact it has to do with all knowledge not just what we come to believe through inductive reasoning. There is NOT a different kind of faith, there is either something we find reliable and trustworthy or not.
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@indonesia-phil saidHave you seen me say God in any of this, outside of responding to someone bringing God up? This is your hang-up, you insert something into the discussion that isn't there to turn it into something it wasn't. I'm sure you are not the only one doing it too, but the word faith, and how it is used is the only thing I have been talking about.
When we make a cup of tea, the kettle that we boil the water in and the electricity which heats the element of the kettle (and so on) are inventions and creations of scientific human minds; adaptations of nature, one might say. We can have 'faith', if you choose to use that word, that the water will heat up when we put the kettle on, because it happens every time. To s ...[text shortened]... alf - baked and ill - conceived logic, but unlike the kettle, none of it holds any water whatsoever.