Pieces of meat that walk and talk?

Originally posted by Suzianne
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, [b]who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2 Corinthians 5:20-21, KJV



"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered fo ...[text shortened]... race, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." -- Hebrews 4:14-16, KJV[/b]

Very well put, thank you!

Originally posted by Suzianne
"And when finally faced with [b]the 'smoking gun', FMF merely moves the goalposts." -- Suzi[/b]

No not really. Your chosen quotes, with that one exception, were interesting and pertinent. Rajk999's reaction will be intriguing. So don't you want to answer my follow up question about what Jesus himself is reported to have said on the matter? That was the kind of thing I was referring to when I used the expression "smoking gun bible quote" so no goalposts have been moved.

Originally posted by leunammi
Very well put, thank you!

So were Corinthians 5:20-21, 1 Peter 2:21-24, Luke 23:21-23 and Hebrews 4:14-16 the same quotes you had in mind? Perhaps you have some others because they don't seem like slam dunk doctrine-forming utterances with regard to such an important point.

Originally posted by divegeester
Reading with interest; to be clear, you contend that Christ not without sin? Can you be specific please?

Please read the thread.

Josephw said that Jesus was BORN WITHOUT SIN.

I'm 100% sure the Bible says no such thing and so far nobody is able to produce a supporting quote.

The Bible did say that Jesus WAS WITHOUT SIN.

That's different from what josephw said.

Originally posted by FMF
So were Corinthians 5:20-21, 1 Peter 2:21-24, Luke 23:21-23 and Hebrews 4:14-16 the same quotes you had in mind? Perhaps you have some others because they don't seem like slam dunk doctrine-forming utterances with regard to such an important point.

No? They don't? Suzi has made the point.

Originally posted by FMF
No not really. Your chosen quotes, with that one exception, were interesting and pertinent. Rajk999's reaction will be intriguing. So don't you want to answer my follow up question about what Jesus himself is reported to have said on the matter? That was the kind of thing I was referring to when I used the expression "smoking gun bible quote" so no goalposts have been moved.

Mr Leunammi seems to be more like one who goes around supporting people he likes rather than one capable of thinking for himself.

There will be no supporting references for the statement that Jesus was BORN WITHOUT SIN because there are none.

I'm on the road now and away from my computer otherwise I could have said more and produce some quotes.

The bible says Jesus was sinless and WITHOUT SIN.

Churches however preach another doctrine which we see being promoted here but which is not in the bible.

Originally posted by leunammi
No? They don't? Suzi has made the point.

OK, well Suzianne's quotes were interesting, sure. What about Jesus though? Did he identify himself as "sinless"? I'm not a Christian, so the doctrine about this that you happen to believe in does not affect my reality. However, I find this issue very interesting, even if I do appear to have misunderstood what Rajk999 was referring to exactly.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Please read the thread.

Josephw said that Jesus was BORN WITHOUT SIN.

I'm 100% sure the Bible says no such thing and so far nobody is able to produce a supporting quote.

The Bible did say that Jesus WAS WITHOUT SIN.

That's different from what josephw said.

What are you contending? Is it merely the words 'Born Without Sin' are not in the bible? Is yoyr point semantics only? Do you believe Jesus was born without sin?

Originally posted by leunammi
What are you contending? Is it merely the words 'Born Without Sin' are not in the bible? Is yoyr point semantics only? Do you believe Jesus was born without sin?

Still waiting for the quote.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Still waiting for the quote.

I am unaware of any biblical reference that states implicitly that Jesus was 'born without sin'. However, we know from others that he was, is and will forever be without sin.

Now, I am waiting. Are you saying Jesus was born with sin? In sin?

Please don't deflect, it is a simple straightforward question. One I would think you would be able to answer.

Originally posted by leunammi
I am unaware of any biblical reference that states implicitly that Jesus was 'born without sin'. However, we know from others that he was, is and will forever be without sin.

Now, I am waiting. Are you saying Jesus was born with sin? In sin?

Please don't deflect, it is a simple straightforward question. One I would think you would be able to answer.

From your Christian point of view, in what significant way was Jesus "human"?

Originally posted by leunammi
I am unaware of any biblical reference that states implicitly that Jesus was 'born without sin'. However, we know from others that he was, is and will forever be without sin.

Now, I am waiting. Are you saying Jesus was born with sin? In sin?

Please don't deflect, it is a simple straightforward question. One I would think you would be able to answer.

Don't hold your breath waiting for an intelligible answer leunammi. Rajk and fmf are only here to obfuscate the discussion with endless and meaningless questions and assertions made without context or relevance to any biblically sound poster's intent.

Originally posted by josephw
Don't hold your breath waiting for an intelligible answer leunammi. Rajk and fmf are only here to obfuscate the discussion with endless and meaningless questions and assertions made without context or relevance to any biblically sound poster's intent.

Mmm. And what, may I ask, are you yourself "only here" to do, josephw?

Originally posted by josephw
If one thinks, as sonhouse does, maybe you too, hard to tell since you're basically non-committal about what you believe concerning Jesus, as far as I can tell, that God doesn't exist, that it's better to die and cease to exist than to live forever, that the idea of living forever is "shyte", then maybe it's time for a change in thinking.

Like maybe a closer look at reality.

It's all right, I don't need you to have clear ideas about me but I have stated several times that when I introspect I find no belief in deity. I have also said although perhaps not so clearly that the Abrahamic God concept including the Christian Jesus has imo been revised over the centuries so as to be undisprovable. I have no opinion about the quality of the afterlife, I think that should be decided when one is in it. I have never used the quasi-word that this iPad wants to replace with "Shute."

I was interested in your referring to paradigm shift as the term might relate to religion, and whether religious beliefs could be verified by scientific experimentation. I guess I won't find out what you think.

Edit: I do think that your idea that creation implies creator is semantically correct but describing what exists as "creation" begs the question. But "begging the question" is an often misunderstood term.

Edit 2:

Sometimes I think of you as a Jesuit.

Originally posted by josephw
Don't hold your breath waiting for an intelligible answer leunammi. Rajk and fmf are only here to obfuscate the discussion with endless and meaningless questions and assertions made without context or relevance to any biblically sound poster's intent.

Well I would hope that Rajk999 would answer, it seems like he has a lot to say about things. From what I have seen most questions posed to him are met with the hand and responded to with something like 'I don't answer personal questions'.

I am unaware of any biblical reference that states implicitly that Jesus was 'born without sin'. However, we know from others that he was, is and will forever be without sin.

Now, I am waiting. Are you saying Jesus was born with sin? In sin?

Please don't deflect, it is a simple straightforward question. One I would think you would be able to answer.

How about it Raj, will you answer my question? I answered yours.

Do you believe Jesus was born with sin? In sin?