Prove the trinity.......

Originally posted by divegeester
Speaking of overly biased translations; how about the NWT?

By the way i agree with sonship, there is nothimg as effective as Galveston75 getting himself in trouble in here, to bring you out of your leafy undergrowth. 😛

How am I in trouble? Please explain.
I've asked everyone here that wishes to simply prove the trinity to me. They can answer it as simply as they would like and use all the scriptures that please too.
So far nothing but a few scriptures that in reality disprove that teaching. And when they get called out, well the same old reactions, they can't so they get mad and constantly try to change the subject of this thread.

So to all the trinity people here, this thread can stay open and will still be here for whoever would still like to answer.
John 1:18 is still a scripture no one can seem to figure it out. So still try if you want..

No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father has declared Him (John 1:18)

Adam saw God. But compared to what Jesus Christ is that has been superseded.
Abraham saw God. But compared to what Jesus Christ is that too has been superseded.
Jacob saw God. But compared to what Jesus manifested that seeing too has been transcended.
Moses and the seventy elders of Israel saw God. In comparison to the incarnation of Jesus, His life, death, and resurrection, this manifestation supersedes all that Moses saw of the glory of God.
Isaiah and Ezekiel, saw God's glory.

The Apostle John makes a bold statement. All those appearances of God to the people in the Old Testament have now been superseded by the incarnation of God as the man Jesus - the Son of God.

Jesus has declared God, defined God, manifested God through His living, His death, and His resurrection. He has explained God. He has declared God to mankind in a superseding way surpassing all the epiphanies of the ages past.

In comparison to what Jesus declared through His every single moment of life, death, resurrection and ascension the past seeings of God have now been made stepping stones on the way to this manifestation of God and man mingled and united to express an indestructible life.

"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him"

Furthermore, this "seeing" of God is not merely by the five senses. It is a seeing which requires revelation - a supernatural enabling to see reality.

" He said to them, But you, who do you say that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in the heavens." (Matt. 16:15-17)

This seeing cannot be obtained just in the natural mind. This seeing that Christ is the Son of the living God requires the opening of spiritual eyes by a revelation from the Father.

Originally posted by sonship

[b] No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father has declared Him (John 1:18)

Adam saw God. But compared to what Jesus Christ is that has been superseded.
Abraham saw God. But compared to what Jesus Christ is that too has been superseded.
Jacob saw God. But comp ...[text shortened]... into your answers. It shows sincerity and effort which is more can be said of a couple here. Thanks.

Oh.... you sure make this complicated with so many words. That seems to be the main issue with ones who believe the trinity. By the time they try to explain it and make it somehow work out with that doctrine, they've used up every word in the English language.

As the Bible says NO one has seen Almighty God, the Father of Jesus who is Jehovah, Period. If they did they would have died instantly from the power he possess.

Has Anyone Ever Seen God?

The Bible’s answer:

No human has literally seen God. (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18; 1 John 4:12) The Bible says that “God is a Spirit,” a form of life that is invisible to the human eye.—John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17.

God can be seen directly by angels, though, because they are spirit creatures. (Matthew 18:10) Moreover, some humans who die will be raised to life in heaven with a spirit body and will then be able to see God.—Philippians 3:20, 21; 1 John 3:2.

How to “see” God now:

The Bible often uses the idea of seeing figuratively, to represent enlightenment. (Isaiah 6:10; Jeremiah 5:21; John 9:39-41) In this sense, a person can see God now with “the eyes of [his] heart” by having faith so as to know Him and appreciate His qualities. (Ephesians 1:18) The Bible describes steps to build this kind of faith.

Learn about God’s qualities, such as his love and generosity as well as his wisdom and power, through his creation. (Romans 1:20) After being reminded of God’s creative works, the faithful man Job felt as though God were right before his eyes.—Job 42:5.
Get to know God by studying the Bible. “If you search for [God], he will let himself be found by you,” the Bible assures us.—1 Chronicles 28:9; Psalm 119:2; John 17:3.
Learn about God through the life of Jesus. Since Jesus perfectly reflected the personality of his Father, Jehovah God, he could rightly say: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also.”—John 14:9.
Live in a way that pleases God, and see how he acts in your behalf. Jesus said: “Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God.” As noted earlier, some who please God will be resurrected to heaven and will thus “see God” there.—Matthew 5:8; Psalm 11:7.

Did not Moses, Abraham, and others actually see God?

In accounts where it might seem that the Bible says that humans literally saw God, the context shows that God was represented by an angel or appeared by means of a vision.

Angels.
In ancient times, God sent angels as his representatives to appear to humans and to speak in his name. (Psalm 103:20) For example, God once spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and the Bible says that “Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the true God.” (Exodus 3:4, 6) Moses did not literally see God, though, for the context shows that he actually saw “Jehovah’s angel.”—Exodus 3:2.

Similarly, when the Bible says that God “spoke to Moses face-to-face,” it means that God conversed with Moses intimately. (Exodus 4:10, 11; 33:11) Moses did not actually see God’s face, for the information he received from God “was transmitted through angels.” (Galatians 3:19; Acts 7:53) Still, Moses’ faith in God was so strong that the Bible described him as “seeing the One who is invisible.”—Hebrews 11:27.

In the same way that he spoke to Moses, God communicated with Abraham through angels. Granted, a casual reading of the Bible might give the impression that Abraham literally saw God. (Genesis 18:1, 33) However, the context shows that the “three men” who came to Abraham were actually angels sent by God. Abraham recognized them as God’s representatives and addressed them as if he were speaking directly to Jehovah.—Genesis 18:2, 3, 22, 32; 19:1.

Visions.
God has also appeared to humans through visions, or scenes presented to a person’s mind. For instance, when the Bible says that Moses and other Israelites “saw the God of Israel,” they really “saw a vision of the true God.” (Exodus 24:9-11) Likewise, the Bible sometimes says that prophets “saw Jehovah.” (Isaiah 6:1; Daniel 7:9; Amos 9:1) In each case, the context shows that they were given a vision of God rather than a direct view of him.—Isaiah 1:1; Daniel 7:2; Amos 1:1.

To sonship: I actually want to thank you for your work and the time you take to post all the info you think is needed to get your points across. I know it's lots of work. I wish more here would do that instead of just throwing stuff out there with nothing from the bible to support their claims. Steve.

Originally posted by galveston75
Oh.... you sure make this complicated with so many words. That seems to be the main issue with ones who believe the trinity. By the time they try to explain it and make it somehow work out with that doctrine, they've used up every word in the English language.

As the Bible says NO one has seen Almighty God, the Father of Jesus who is Jehovah, Period. If they did they would have died instantly from the power he possess.
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You should get your head out of the Watchtower magazine and those commentaries and teacher's instruction books and spend more time just reading through a decent Bible translation with a repentant spirit.

"And Jacob said to Joseph, The All-sufficient God appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me." (Genesis 48:3 Recovery Version )

El Shaddai is often translated "God Almighty".

ie.

New American Standard Bible
Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,

King James Bible
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me.

International Standard Version
Jacob reminded Joseph, "God Almighty revealed himself to me at Luz in Canaan and blessed me.

New Heart English Bible
Jacob said to Joseph, "El Shaddai appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in Canaan and blessed me.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And Jacob said unto Joseph: 'God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

New American Standard 1977
Then Jacob said to Joseph, “God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,

Jubilee Bible 2000
and said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me

Exodus 24:10

New American Standard Bible
and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

King James Bible
And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and they saw the God of Israel. Beneath His feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire stone, as clear as the sky itself.

International Standard Version
and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky.

NET Bible
and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear like the sky itself.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] As the Bible says NO one has seen Almighty God, the Father of Jesus who is Jehovah, Period. If they did they would have died instantly from the power he possess.
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You should get your head out of the Watchtower magazine and those comm ...[text shortened]... s feet there was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear like the sky itself. [/quote][/b]

Did you not only read my post on what physically seeing god means in that it is physically impossible to see God and live thru it? Also do you really think that God with his grandness in his power, mightiness, and whatever other words that could hardly begin to describe him and his power beyond our imagination, appear to us tiny humans as perhaps as another human himself?
Have you forgotten what he has created in the reaches of the universe? I wouldn't have a hard time imagining him just dwarfing in might and greatness even the largest sun know to exist.
So it must be that some of the bible you either don't believe or do you just ignor those?

Originally posted by galveston75
Did you not only read my post on what physically seeing god means in that it is physically impossible to see God and live thru it? Also do you really think that God with his grandness in his power, mightiness, and whatever other words that could hardly begin to describe him and his power beyond our imagination, appear to us tiny humans as perhaps as anot ...[text shortened]... ist.
So it must be that some of the bible you either don't believe or do you just ignor those?

The answer is - the redemption of Christ.

The verses that I submitted are there in the word of God in spite of the warning that to see God fallen men would die. We cannot say the verses are NOT in the Bible when they are.

The answer for these seeings is the in the God who transcends time and history, He did sometimes see His people through the lense of the eternal redemption of Christ. This mighty redemption is as mighty as the distance between fallen sinners and the God of glory.

For our sake, that we may learn, God allowed men to be viewed by Him as through the redemption of Jesus Christ to come.

An explicit case in point - the case of Isaiah. This time the crucial words only are in the bold.

"In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting on a high and lofty throne, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

Seraphim hovered over Him, ... And one called to the other, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Jehovah of hosts; the whole earth is filled with His glory.

And the foundation of the threshold shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.

Then I said, Woe is me, for I am finished! For I am a man of unclean lips,
And in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell; Yet I have seen the King,

Jehovah of hosts.

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with an ember in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. And he touched my mouth with it and said,

Now that this has touched your lips, Your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is purged. " (See Isaiah 6:1-7)

This symbolism is a preview, a foreshadow of the mighty redemption of sinners because of the finished work of Christ to REMOVE man's guilt.

By your under estimating the IDENTITY of the One who died on the cross, you simultaneously underestimate the extensive, all-inclusive, all mighty redemption of His death for man. And its centrality to the whole Bible you miss. And the love and righteousness of it - AS extensive as the size of the universe also - you miss.

Originally posted by sonship
The answer is - [b] the redemption of Christ.

The verses that I submitted are there in the word of God in spite of the warning that to see God fallen men would die. We cannot say the verses are NOT in the Bible when they are.

The answer for these seeings is the in the God who transcends time and history, He did sometimes see His people thro ...[text shortened]... And the love and righteousness of it - AS extensive as the size of the universe also - you miss.[/b]

Well ok then...Lol.

From The Life Study of Isaiah by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0CD7C6E3C3

II. THE LORD, THE KING, JEHOVAH OF HOSTS,
APPEARING TO ISAIAH

The Lord, the King, Jehovah of hosts, appeared to Isaiah. He saw the Lord sitting on a high and lofty throne (Isa. 6:1a). Isaiah saw the glory of God and the train of the Lord's robe filling the entire temple. He also saw the seraphim, and each seraphim had six wings. Two of the wings were for covering his face, two covered his feet, and with two he flew. These seraphim called to each other, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, Jehovah of hosts; the whole earth is filled with His glory" (v. 3). That was their fellowship with each other, indicating that they signify or represent the holiness of Christ. They were standing there for His holiness. Such a vision should have encouraged the depressed prophet, but he did not tell us he was encouraged. Instead, he said, "Woe is me, for I am finished! For I am a man of unclean lips, and in the midst of a people of unclean lips I dwell" (v. 5). Then one of the seraphim flew to Isaiah with an ember from the altar to touch his mouth for his cleansing (vv. 6-7). This is the picture presented in Isaiah 6.

In Isaiah 6 Christ, the God-man, is seen in His divine glory. This God-man is unveiled in chapter four as the Shoot of Jehovah, the Fruit of the earth, a canopy covering God's interests in the entire universe, and the tabernacle overshadowing God's elect to protect them from all kinds of troubles. Isaiah 6 shows us the same One in another aspect. In Isaiah 6 He is the God in glory sitting on the throne. Because He is wearing a long robe, He is also a man. This One is the God-man with divine glory and human virtues.

His human virtues are signified by the long train of His robe. This indicates that the vision here pays more attention to Christ's human virtues. The four Gospels show us Christ as God and as man, but they show us more concerning Christ as a man. In the Gospels we see more of Christ in His manhood and in His humanity than in His divinity. Christ is expressed in His human virtues much more than in His divine glory. However, His human virtues need the divine glory as a source. Christ is a person with the divine glory expressed in His human virtues.

We all have to see the full vision of Christ in Isaiah 6. Christ is sitting on a high and lofty throne as the Lord, the King, Jehovah of hosts. He is the very God on the throne. John the apostle told us in John 12 that Isaiah saw Christ's glory. This means that Jehovah of hosts, the King, the Lord, was Christ. Christ was wearing a long robe in this vision. This means that Christ's humanity is "long." The train of Christ's robe fills the temple. The Lord who appeared to Isaiah was on a high and lofty throne in His divine glory (John 12:39-41), signified by the smoke, and with His human virtues, signified by the train of His robe. His holiness is held by the seraphim (Isa. 6:2-3).

Originally posted by galveston75
Did you not only read my post on what physically seeing god means in that it is physically impossible to see God and live thru it?

Was this according to the so called old covenant or did it apply, in your view, to the new covenant as well?

Cont. a little more -

2. With an
Ember
from the Altar

Isaiah was purged with an ember from the altar (vv. 6b-7a). This ember signifies the effectiveness of Christ's redemption accomplished on the cross.

3. To Take Away His Iniquity and to Purge His Sin

This purging by the seraphim with an ember from the altar took away Isaiah's iniquity and purged his sin (v. 7b).

Had Isaiah not been washed by God before his experience in chapter six? Yes, Isaiah had been cleansed, but he realized that he was still unclean. This indicates that we all need to realize that we are a totality of uncleanness. No matter how many times we may be washed, we are still unclean. We all must come to know ourselves to this extent.

In our experience, whether we are clean or unclean depends on the feeling of our conscience; and the feeling of our conscience depends on our seeing the Lord. How much we see the Lord determines how much we will be cleansed. The more we see the Lord and are exposed, the more we are cleansed. When our conscience is cleansed and is void of offense, we are able to contact God. According to our enlightened conscience, we are clean, but according to the actual facts of our situation in the old creation, we are not clean. How could the old creation be clean? As long as we remain in the old creation, we can never be completely clean, for the old creation is unclean. We need the redemption of our body. Once our body is redeemed, we will get out of the old creation. At that time, we will be completely clean.

(Life-Study of Isaiah, Chapter 6, Section 4)

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0CD7C7E4CE

Originally posted by galveston75
How am I in trouble? Please explain.
I've asked everyone here that wishes to simply prove the trinity to me. They can answer it as simply as they would like and use all the scriptures that please too.
So far nothing but a few scriptures that in reality disprove that teaching. And when they get called out, well the same old reactions, they can't so th ...[text shortened]... r.
John 1:18 is still a scripture no one can seem to figure it out. So still try if you want..

I'm not a trinitarian.

I don't think you're in trouble. I think sonship thinks he has you on the ropes and robbie stepped in. I just noted it, that's all.

My issue with you is the deity of Christ. but I don't have to be a trinitarian to believe that, despite what Suzianne thinks.