02 Nov 16
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeNo, there is nothing Atheism is doing! Besides, soul, you want to show me the soul and
Atheism allows the human soul to reach it's full potential, unhindered by the words of ancient men, designed to curtail and denigrate.
It is religion that has nothing tangible to offer.
how its full potential is reached? If I hand you nothing and you go out and do something
with your life that is you doing something with your life, I didn't give you anything to help.
Being unhindered by words of ancient men can be done with or without a belief in God,
and reach ones "full potential" whatever that means. You can put road blocks upon your
life with or without beliefs in God, and you assume that God isn't there to actually take
an active part. Which would be a tangible offer, and ancient men's wisdom can be a gift
too and that would be a gift too. Atheism has nothing to offer just a non-belief or
a rejection of something else which is not something you can call a gift to help.
You can claim other Atheist words can help you so you just made the turn in your life
based upon other men instead of a select few who believe in God and claim God had
an active role in their lives. But as I have been told Atheism is not a religion so the words
other give you have no binding beliefs to them that highlight Atheism as a belief or
religion.
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02 Nov 16
8 edits
For what purpose did God give the ten commandments?
Did God give the ten commandments for human beings to keep?
Or did He give them for human beings to break?
If you study the New Testament you have to see that God gave the ten commandments to EXPOSE the real sickness of fallen man.
It would be hard for me to say God gave the ten commandments for man to BREAK. But it would not be too far from the truth. Man was sickened constitutionally with something called sin. But man thinks he is not that bad off. Why, if he has some "sin" problem, well, he can fix that up with no problem. Man thinks he is not too bad off.
So God says in essence - "You don't realize the damage that has occurred to your being. Here, keep this Law."
The ten commandments (on one hand) is given to portray what God demands, commands, and what man OUGHT to be. But the deeper function is that the ten commandments brings to light, exposes, reveals the true inability of man to live normally as God intended him to live in His creating of man.
God gave the commandments to EXPOSE. Look at the tenth commandment.
"You shall not COVET ... "
No one can totally stop his tendency to jealously want what another has.
No one can arrest her reaction to destructively envy others FOR something they have which you don't have.
No one can say they are only FULLY satisfied in God alone.
All people at some time or another jealously want something that someone else has.
All covet.
All have broken the commandment - "You shall not covet ...".
Of course most of us have not done well with the other nine commandments either.
They were given to EXPOSE the sin nature in man, that he CANNOT overcome or solve without God's help.
02 Nov 16
Originally posted by KellyJayAtheism frees man from belief.
No, there is nothing Atheism is doing! Besides, soul, you want to show me the soul and
how its full potential is reached? If I hand you nothing and you go out and do something
with your life that is you doing something with your life, I didn't give you anything to help.
Being unhindered by words of ancient men can be done with or without a belief in Go ...[text shortened]...
other give you have no binding beliefs to them that highlight Atheism as a belief or
religion.
That is enough.
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02 Nov 16
1 edit
Here the Apostle Paul explains how, as good as a religious person he was, he could not keep the tenth commandment. And it exposed him to the uttermost before God.
" What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said,
'You shall not covet.'
But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind; for without the law sin is dead." (Romans 7:7,8)
The law of God "You shall not COVET ..." totally activated and exposed the SIN nature infesting Paul.
Paul goes on to explain that the law of God was given that sin would be exposed as exceedingly insidious a power working in fallen man.
" Did then that which is good [the commandments of the Law] become death to me? Absolutely not!
But sin did, that it might be shown to be sin by working out death in me through that which is good,
that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful." (v.13)
Instead of resentment, we should be relieved to see the true nature of our sickness and the remedy God provides in salvation in Christ.
02 Nov 16
Originally posted by NickstenFirst it is important to understand what I mean when I say 'I am an atheist'. - Sonship generalises that atheists 'don't want to believe in God' rather than simply 'not believing in God.' I understand of course why he does this as it is easy to speak of divine punishment when an individual doesn't 'want' to believe and has 'chosen' to reject God. It is not quite so easy to condemn an atheist to eternal damnation when he clearly states (as I have done) that actually I would very much like (want) to believe in God but don't do so because I am not convinced of his existence. I haven't said 'God exists, but I don't want to believe in him.' I have said 'I can't choose to believe in something that I don't believe exists.'
I would like to find out more why you would think/know Christianity offers false hope, that is, if you want to go into this.
Secondly, I am not an atheist who has arrived at his atheism through ignorance or apathy. As I have mentioned before, I have a degree in Theology and have probably spent more time contemplating the existence of God than many theists, not just in Christianity, but in all the major religions. This study however only served to reinforce my atheism and uphold my view that religion is a human construct, there to provide comfort and hope.
I do not begrudge anybody their faith and am happy for them if they draw strength from it and if it helps make life easier for them. For me though such hope is a placebo and i'd rather take my life in my own hands.
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02 Nov 16
4 edits
Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
First it is important to understand what I mean when I say 'I am an atheist'. - Sonship generalises that atheists 'don't want to believe in God' rather than simply 'not believing in God.' I understand of course why he does this as it is easy to speak of divine punishment when an individual doesn't 'want' to believe and has 'chosen' to reject God.
It is interesting to me that more frequently posters want to portray me as having only "punishment" as subject matter to talk about.
Over the past, say, six years, not many threads started by me had as a major theme "eternal punishment".
What this frequent bringing up torture, damnation, punishment, etc. indicates to me is that behind all the other arguments that people have, what seems to be MOST on their mind is the prospect or teaching about God's judgment.
These are things mentioned in the Bible. But they certainly are not mentioned all the time. This is a kind of Catch 22 for the Christian.
If he feels to defend his belief in God's clear warnings, he is portrayed as eager only to talk about the torturing God.
"See, there he goes again. He worships the torturing deity."
It would be an interesting exercise to see how long someone could read in the Bible from Genesis 1:1 on, to see at what point "eternal punishment" is clearly mentioned in the Bible.
It is not quite so easy to condemn an atheist to eternal damnation when he clearly states (as I have done) that actually I would very much like (want) to believe in God but don't do so because I am not convinced of his existence.
He is implying that I am eager to condemn the atheist to suffering eternally.
This is his caricature of the Christian - just cannot WAIT for the Atheist to be tortured.
It may come to be more and more mentioned that connection will be drawn between anything I might discuss on the Spirituality Forum and "eternal damnation" as if there is no other thing revealed in the Bible.
I haven't said 'God exists, but I don't want to believe in him.' I have said 'I can't choose to believe in something that I don't believe exists.'
I agree.
You haven't SAID that.
Maybe you haven't THOUGHT that.
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02 Nov 16
I did have a friend tell me that his complaint against the Christian Gospel was this -
"You have to have faith to believe. And you have to believe to have faith."
And I went home and I thought about it hard. And you know what? I decided that he was exactly right. He was not only right, but the Bible agreed with him.
" But without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to Him, for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)
There you have it all my Atheists friends (and otherwise). I agree with you 100%.
To come to God you must first believe that God IS ... And if you don't believe that God IS, you cannot come forward to God for any deeper experience of God.
1.) This passage says that without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to God.
2.) This passage says that to touch God, experience God, know God subjectively, you have to first believe that God IS ... objectively
Now to my comment that the Atheist does not WANT to believe?
I am willing to adjust that a little. There are some people who would like to know God but just cannot believe yet that God IS.
Ghost of a Duke, does this sit with you any better ?
If you say yes, ie. "I would like to know God personally but I just cannot bring myself to believe that God is there." I can say that is a real possibility.
On the other hand, if in your heart you have the kind of attitude - IE. "I just cannot believe that God IS. And to tell the truth everything I have heard about God makes me NOT what to know any such being."
Then you should at least see how those who do claim to know something of God, might view many Atheists. They don't want to know God.
Benefit of a doubt - some posters may think they would like to know God if they could come to the point that God exists.
First it is important to understand what I mean when I say 'I am an atheist'.
Fair enough. You lack a belief in gods and bear no burden to prove that you have made a positive truth claim that gods do not exist. That's the popular current definition.
"I am defined not by what I believe or claim as a truth but what I lack in way of belief. The default position is lack of belief in gods. The burden to prove the existence of gods or God is 1,000,000% on the believer in God.
You thiests bear all burden to force me to give up my lack of belief. And stop threatening be with torture forever because you're mad about that! "
Do I read you right ?
02 Nov 16
Originally posted by KellyJayAnd you my friend are missing out on the atheist's buffet.
Rejecting something isn't handing something new to anyone. You by all means can say be like me is enough, from my perspective you are losing out on the richest most fulfilling part of life.
The sandwiches are marvellous!
02 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipYou so nearly 'read me' old chap, but then go and ruin it with over simplification. 🙂
The new atheist's condensed Bible.
[b]Genesis 1:1 - " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Genesis 1:2 - "You're going to be tortured forever. "
Genesis 1:3 "The End "
That's all. No need to read anything else! Atheism, here I come![/b]
Points of correction:
1. Again, I have studied theology at degree level. (Including Genesis!) So any suggestion I have made a snap judgement is unfounded. I didn't stop reading after Genesis 1:3.
2. I do not view your Christian outlook as one dimensional. I do not believe, or have ever suggested, that you are all about hell and damnation. I apologise if i have given that impression.
3. I do not put the burden of proof on Christians. I am proactive enough to have made up my own mind about the non existence of God. Your own 'evidence' for the existence of God is your own business. I do not need to see 'your proof' for something I have already discounted through thorough consideration. I am not convinced by the evidence that God exists, so am unable to believe in Him, even if I want to. I do not expect you to provide such evidence.
4. You stated, 'I am willing to adjust that a little. There are some people who would like to know God but just cannot believe yet that God IS.' - This would indeed be a closer understanding of my position. (Though would prefer you said atheist rather than people, to demonstrate your true understanding).
5. I note that you don't like generalisations or caricatures being made about your Christianity, but frequently you make such sweeping statements about atheists.I sincerely ask you reflect on that, for the cause of mutual understanding and respect.
02 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipClearly you dont have the Spirit of Christ.
For what purpose did God give the ten commandments?
Did God give the ten commandments for human beings to keep?
Or did He give them for human beings to break?
If you study the New Testament you have to see that God gave the ten commandments to EXPOSE the real sickness of fallen man.
It would be hard for me to say God gave the ten comm ...[text shortened]... EXPOSE the sin nature in man, that he CANNOT overcome or solve without God's help.[/b]
You live in the flesh.
02 Nov 16
Originally posted by sonshipYou talk about many other things too, sonship. Can you cite any posts where posters have alleged that you have "only punishment as subject matter to talk about"? I think this is a falsehood. I think you know it full well and are stating this falsehood deliberately.
It is interesting to me that more frequently posters want to portray me as having only "punishment" as subject matter to talk about.