Originally posted by sonshipI meant to say Christ is NOT the same Person as the Holy Spirit. Mr. Lee teaches that Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit.Lee's words compare favorably with Scripture in some case and contrary to scripture in other cases. It is those contraty statements that must be challenged.
The co-workers have furnished you with a search engine so that you can search through Witness Lee's messages and find phrases of interest and how they were used.
http://www.min ...[text shortened]... from using Paul. Did it?
It didn't stop Paul from writing some 13 books of the New Testament.
I do not wish to get into a long argument on this, but I was just calling a spade a spade and a cult leader a cult leader. If you wish to believe that Christ is the SAME Person as the Father and He is also the SAME Person as the Holy Spirit, then that is up to you.
All I am saying is that does not agree with the catholic (universal) Christian Creed that the Father is a distinct and individual Person and the Son is a distinct and individual Person and the Holy Spirit is a distinct and individual Person. This means that these three Persons are NOT the SAME Person.
That does not mean they have to be separate to be distinct and individual for they are united as one in love and purpose as the one God.
Originally posted by RJHinds
I meant to say Christ is NOT the same Person as the Holy Spirit. Mr. Lee teaches that Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit.
Again, the use of the word "Person" or "Persons" is our human language attempt to describe the very mysterious nature of the three-in-one and one-in-three God. And on occasion Witness Lee used both terms. I do also.
For Witness Lee to teach that Second Corinthians 3:17 says "Now the Lord is the Spirit" and that is to be taken on faith, literally, at face value, and experienced is he simply being faithful to the Bible's teaching.
Hermas (A.D. 40-150?) was thought to be Paul's friend mentioned in Romans 16:14 and also a contemporary of Clement of Rome mentioned in Philippians 4:3. About Second Corinthians 3:17-18 he says -
"I wish to explain to you what the Holy Spirit that spake with you in the form of the church showed you, for that Spirit is the Son of God."
[The Shepherd of Hermas, Similitude 9:1 ]
This statement "that Spirit is the Son of God," would have come under attack under latter definitions of the Trinity. However in Hermas non-theological expresssions, non-creedal expressions it proves that the earliest church fathers made reference to the bare facts of the New Testament.
Like the Apostle Paul and Witness Lee, Hermas was addressing the experience of the Christians.
I do not wish to get into a long argument on this, but I was just calling a spade a spade and a cult leader a cult leader.
I will discuss this to make an example of your gullibility. You jumped on a bandwagon and followed (push button style) some ignorant accusations long since debunked.
This portion of the Book Voices of Confirmation states something written by the pioneering critics of Witness Lee CRI after there 6 year research which changed their minds about the cult accusation.
It's The Economy Stupid
8
You may remember the catch phrase coined by Bill Clinton’s political strategist James Carville in the 1992 presidential race to keep the campaign on message: “It’s the economy, stupid.” In a different sense the same rebuke might well be addressed to those of us who missed a distinction frequently made in LC literature between the essential Trinity (also called the ontological Trinity or the immanent Trinity) and the economic
Trinity. These terms refer to a distinction that is widely made in orthodox theology; one that we at CRI have always embraced and taught. It is a distinction between the eternal nature and interrelationship of the three divine persons and the temporal (i.e., time-related and situated) roles that they assume in their relationship with creation.
1
It is therefore the case that much of the LC’s identification of the Son with the Father and the Spirit is stated in the context of the operations of the economic Trinity, and is based on a similar identification that is made in Scripture. On Christ and the Spirit As this is one of the topics that has drawn the greatest amount of criticism concerning Witness Lee’s teaching, we feel that it is important to add a few quotations from others on the subject. At least one notable contemporary scholar worth mention is James D.G. Dunn, who addresses some of the same scriptural passages that Witness Lee has given frequent attention to:
...Paul identifies the exalted Jesus with the Spirit–not with a spiritual being...or a spiritual dimension or sphere..., but with the Spirit, the Holy Spirit....Immanent christology is for Paul pneumatology; in the believer’s experience there is no distinction between Christ and Spirit. This does not mean of course that Paul makes no distinction between Christ and Spirit.
(
The Christ and the Spirit , vol. 1, Christology
[Grand Rapids, MI: W. B. Eerdmans, 1998], 164-165) (my bolding)
W. H. Griffith Thomas, the noted theologian from a generation ago and one whom Witness Lee frequently quoted regarding the Trinity, also makes reference to the twofoldness of this divine truth, while offering a remarkably clear and succinct summary of the identification of Christ and the Spirit:
It is essential to preserve with care both sides of this truth. Christ and the Spirit are different yet the same, the same yet different. Perhaps the best expression we can give is that while their Personalities are never identical, their presence always is.
(The Holy Spirit [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel, 1986; reprint of
The Holy Spirit of God , 4th ed., Grand Rapids: W. B. Eerdmans, 1913], 144)
It is clear from these quotations as well as from the entirety of the ministry of Witness Lee that it is in the realm of the believers’ experience of Christ—and not in God’s immanent existence—that the identification between Christ and the Spirit obtains. H. B. Swete confirms this same thought:
The Spirit in its working was found to be in effect the equivalent of Jesus Christ...where the possession of the Spirit of Christ is clearly regarded as tantamount to an indwelling of Christ Himself....“the Lord the Spirit,” (i.e. Christ in the power of His glorified life) are viewed as being in practice the same. [/b]
(The Holy Spirit in the New Testament [London; New York: Macmillan,
1912], 306)
2
You should spend time to learn about the ontological trinity and the immanent trinity in the history of Christian theology. This distinction has also be called the essential trinity and the economical trinity. [/quote]
[my bolding]
RJHinds continues:
If you wish to believe that Christ is the SAME Person as the Father and He is also the SAME Person as the Holy Spirit, then that is up to you.
Not that I need your permission on any of these things.
God is mysterious. And I would testify that the Lord Jesus Christ lives in me as the Spirit. So for lack of better expression, yes, I would say He is the same Person.
But He certainly is an unusual Person.
Let's ask you - WHERE is Jesus Christ today ? Where is He ?
ANSWER: According to the book of Romans Christ can be located in two places-
1.) He is at the right hand of God in heaven, interceding for the saints -
" Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died and, rather, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." (Romans 8:34)
2.) He is also within the saints, indwelling the believers -
"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:10)
Did you get that? Christ is at the same time at the right hand of God and also in the believers.
Do you believe that that is TWO Christs or the same Christ?
I believe that "Christ is in you" refers to the same Christ who died and was raised and is at the right hand of God interceding for us.
We could say that within the believers is Christ in His form as "pnuema" - the "pneumatic Christ" if you will. But if you do not, many good brothers and sisters have realized this.
All I am saying is that does not agree with the catholic (universal) Christian Creed that the Father is a distinct and individual Person and the Son is a distinct and individual Person and the Holy Spirit is a distinct and individual Person. This means that these three Persons are NOT the SAME Person.
Notice that this time you said "distinct" but you refrained from saying "separate". I already proved to you that Witness Lee spoke of distinction among the three of the Godhead. He said they were not separated. And this is good Bible teaching.
... the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1) shows distinction. But it does not show separation.
That does not mean they have to be separate to be distinct and individual for they are united as one in love and purpose as the one God.
Exactly. Now you are saying what Witness Lee said. They are distinct but not separate.
The use of the word "they" is appropriate. For we have the use of the word "Us" in Genesis. And we see the use of the word "We" in the Gospel of John.
So as we speak of the one God we can say the Three of the Godhead are an "Us" and are a "We" . But they are not separate or that will probably give the impression that we believe in THREE separate Gods.
Tri-Theism was rejected as heretical by careful teachers of the Christian Church years ago.
Originally posted by sonshipThe idea that Christ Jesus the Son is the very SAME Person as the Father and the very SAME Person as the Holy Soirit was also condemned as heretical by the Universial (catholic) Christian Church over 1600 years ago.I meant to say Christ is NOT the same Person as the Holy Spirit. Mr. Lee teaches that Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit.
Again, the use of the word "Person" or "Persons" is our human language attempt to describe the very mysterious nature of the three-in-one and one-in-three God. And on occasion Witness Lee used both terms. ...[text shortened]...
Tri-Theism was rejected as heretical by careful teachers of the Christian Church years ago.
You must not overlook that the apostle Paul's letters were accepted as scripture, but the the writings of Hermas were not.
Also if Christ Jesus the Son of God is the very same Person as the Holy Spirit and the very same Person as the Father, why did He say I will ask the Father to send ANOTHER comforter, the Holy Spirit, if they are all the SAME? It does not make sense for Jesus to speak of ANOTHER, if He were actually talking about His very own Spirit within Him as Mr. Lee falsely teaches.
And why must the Son ask the Father anything, if He is that very Father. It is nonsens to believe Jesus was saying He was going to ask Himself to sent Himself to the disciples. Mr. Lee is suggesting that Jesus is a deceiver, like Satan.
I see why that student of Mr. Lee's said, "He seemed to revel in the nonsense of it all."
Originally posted by RJHinds
The idea that Christ Jesus the Son is the very SAME Person as the Father and the very SAME Person as the Holy Soirit was also condemned as heretical by the Universial (catholic) Christian Church over 1600 years ago.
In the experience of the Triune God we Christians can detect NO DIFFERENCE between the Persons of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
I sometimes pray to the Lord Jesus. Sometimes I pray to the Father about the Lord Jesus. I may share my love and appreciation for the Son just as the Father did for the Son. I commune agree with the Father about how lovely His Son is.
It is very sweet. I don't mind praying to Son and the Holy Spirit speaking to them about the Father. I need all the help I can get. So sometimes I do think of the Trinity as a glorious unbeatable team.
Having said this, I go on to mention that I can detect NO DIFFERENCE in my communion. Regardless of with Whom I wish to address my prayers it is the same God. It is the same Spirit. It is the same Son.
Some passages in the Bible are more focused on experience rather than systematic academic formulas. This passage shows that the "Person" of the Lord is identical with the "Person" of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17):
New International Version
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
New Living Translation
For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
English Standard Version
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
New American Standard Bible
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
King James Bible
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
International Standard Version
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Lord's Spirit is, there is freedom.
NET Bible
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is present, there is freedom.
And this passage shows that the "Person" of the Word is identical with the "Person" of God (John 1:1):
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
Now let's look at your quote again.
The idea that Christ Jesus the Son is the very SAME Person as the Father and the very SAME Person as the Holy [Spirit] was also condemned as heretical by the Universial (catholic) Christian Church over 1600 years ago.
Some mandatory use of the word plural "Persons" should not be considered a litmus test for what the Christian church has to accept as orthodox. Witness Lee was not heterodox in his ministry concerning the Trinity.
Now let's consider the ground for using plural "Persons" from the same Bible. Let's go back to Genesis 1:
New American Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
King James Bible
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.
American King James Version
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Recovery Version
And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness:
Witness Lee taught about Genesis 1:26,27 quite a lot. Here is a sample from The Central Line of the Divine Revelation:
"God's counsel is God's resolution consummated in the council by the Divine Trinity. A council requires more than one person. A counsel is the decision of a council. A council is a meeting, and the counsel is the resolution made by the council, the meeting. If God is only one, how could He have a council? How could He have a meeting for discussion to make a resolution? This indicates that God is not only one but also three. He is the Divine Trinity. [my emphasis]
And again:
Acts 2:23 says that Christ was delivered up and crucified by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God. This indicates that in eternity past the Triune God had a meeting; there was a council among the three of the Godhead. [my bolding]
And again:
We should not think that Christ was crucified, killed, cut off, merely according to Pilate's judgment. His being cut off was determined in a council held by the Trinity in eternity past.
The three of the Godhead had a council among themselves, and a decision was made called a counsel. God had a will with a purpose according to His good pleasure. Then the Divine Trinity Himself had a council, a meeting, to make a decision, a resolution. This resolution is the counsel. In Genesis 1:26 God said, "Let us make man...." This shows that the creation of man was also according to the council among the three of the divine Godhead. Such a council can be compared to today's Congress in the United States government.
There is nothing unorthodox in these statements. Those who condemn the speaker as a false teacher are jumping on a bandwagon of sloppy ignorance, It really doesn't matter how many scholars signed your Open letter.
Did Witness Lee ever speak of plural "Persons" of the Trinity ?
Yes.
In the section under "God's Restoration and Further Creation" in his Life Study of Genesis Witness Lee said the following:
13) The Conference of the Godhead
Genesis 1:26 reveals that there was a conference held by the Godhead and among the Godhead. We say "among" because God is triune. Using human terms, we may say that there are three Persons in the Godhead, one God with three Persons. I can't explain this. I can only say that God is triune, that we have one God with three Persons. There was a conference held by these three Persons of the Godhead, and a decision was made. This conference with its decision initiated the maturity of life. After God had created the cattle, the beasts, and the creeping things on the first part of the sixth day, He did not proceed immediately to create man. Rather, He had a conference to discuss this matter. Genesis 1:26 says, "And God said, Let us make man..." If we read this verse carefully, we can see that there was something like a conference. God said, "Let us..." God is one: yet, the pronoun is "us." This proves that God is triune. It does not say, "Let me make..." If the Bible had said "me" and not "us," there would have been no need to say "let." The phrase "Let us make" means let us have some fellowship. Although you may think that I infer too much, we nevertheless have this word in the Bible: "Let us..." [my bolding]
To cut this post short here, my point is:
1.) Your critics and signers of the Open Letter were SLOPPY in their research.
2.) Though Witness Lee used both Person and Persons [plural] the use of either word should not be a litmus test of Christian orthodoxy as if the word Person/s HAS to be used to pass the test of systematic creedal formulas.
Cont. below.
Originally posted by sonshipMy point is that Mr. Lee is a false teacher and cult leader.The idea that Christ Jesus the Son is the very SAME Person as the Father and the very SAME Person as the Holy Soirit was also condemned as heretical by the Universial (catholic) Christian Church over 1600 years ago.
In the experience of the Triune God we Christians can detect NO DIFFERENCE between the Persons of the Father - Son - Holy S ...[text shortened]... [b]Person/s HAS to be used to pass the test of systematic creedal formulas.
Cont. below.[/b]
Originally posted by RJHindsAnd because neither have you proved or established, now your replies will get shorter and shorter, I suppose.
My point is that Mr. Lee is a false teacher and cult leader.
I however will continue to expose the ignorant falsehood of your slanders. You jumped on a bandwagon of some petty and perhaps jealous Christian leaders, and you'll fair no better.
What exactly is "FALSE" in Witness Lee's teaching ?
When he spoke of the Son being the Father and the Lord being the Spirit, according to Bible, that was false ?
Originally posted by sonship"... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
And because neither have you proved or established, now your replies will get shorter and shorter, I suppose.
I however will continue to expose the ignorant falsehood of your slanders. You jumped on a bandwagon of some petty and perhaps jealous Christian leaders, and you'll fair no better.
What exactly is [b]"FALSE" in Witness Lee's teaching ? ...[text shortened]... of the Son being the Father and the Lord being the Spirit, according to Bible, that was false ?[/b]
IT does NOT say Jesus became THE Holy Spirit or THE Holy Ghost.
You claim Witness Lee is not teaching extra, but the Christian Church is not teaching enough. However, I believe it is clear that Witness Lee is teaching a heresy. Witness Less is teaching the idea that Christ Jesus, the Son, is the very SAME Person as the Father and the very SAME Person as the Holy Spirit, which was declared a false and heretical teaching along with the Arian heresy by the universal (catholic) Christian Church over 1600 years ago. Charles Taze Russell revived and revised the Arian heresy in establishing the Watchtower Jehovah's Witnesses and others, like Witness Lee, have revived and revised Sabellianism.
QUESTION 1:
If Christ Jesus the Son of God is the very same Person as the Holy Spirit and the very same Person as the Father, why did He say I will ask the Father to send ANOTHER comforter, the Holy Spirit, if they are all the SAME?
QUESTION 2:
Why must the Son ask the Father anything, if He is that very Father?
QUESTION 3:
Do you really believe that Jesus was, in effect, telling His disciplea that He was going to ask Himself (the Father) to sent Himself (the Holy Spirit) to the disciples?
You need to look at the following video to get a better understanding of what I mean:
Church History: Sabellianism
Then answer the questions please.
Originally posted by RJHinds
"... the last Adam [b]became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
IT does NOT say Jesus became THE Holy Spirit or THE Holy Ghost.
You claim Witness Lee is not teaching extra, but the Christian Church is not teaching enough. However, I believe it is clear that Witness Lee is teaching a heresy. Witness Less is teaching the idea ...[text shortened]... Sabellianism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlPGv7rXoq4
Then answer the questions please.[/b]
"... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
IT does NOT say Jesus became THE Holy Spirit or THE Holy Ghost.
Sure, is there ANOTHER Divine Spirit that is life giving BESIDES the Holy Spirit ? If there is then you are proposing -
The Father,
The Son,
The Holy Spirit,
plus the other life giving Spirit that the last Adam became.
But I repeat. The Holy Spirit is called also "the Spirit OF life" (Romans 8:2).
It is no wonder that the Holy Spirit is "life giving" because He is the Spirit of life (Romans 8:2) - "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."
Now calm yourself and think about this for a minute.
Think.
In eternity past God did not have flesh, bones, blood, humanity and human nature. Right? I mean apart from the mysterious fact that He sometimes appeared as a man to Abraham, to Jacob, to Manoah, to Isaiah, God in eternity was just of divine nature.
For the Word to become flesh (John 1:14) means God took on something which in eternity He did not have. Can you agree with that ? I mean how can it say that "the Word became" if He was from eternity always flesh ?
Now, since He put on something He did not put it off after resurrection. That new matter that He put on He brought BACK with Him to the eternal throne. Make sense a little?
So it is logical that though the Spirit of God was in Genesis brooding over the surface of the deep (Genesis 1:2) and is the "eternal Spirit" (Hebrews 9:11) and was even seen coming down upon Jesus at His baptism as a dove, AFTER the incarnation and resurrection Christ became the Holy Spirit.
"And the Word BECAME flesh" (John 1:14)
"the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
If you think about it a little bit perhaps it would make sense. God put on something in incarnation. He never put that off again after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.
These two becommings show the economical side of the Trinity.
The essential Trinity has also His economical move. This is like a process involving two becommings.
1.) The Word became flesh when God became a man.
2.) The last Adam became a life giving Spirit when this man who God became resurrected and ascended to be our eternal salvation.
You claim Witness Lee is not teaching extra, but the Christian Church is not teaching enough.
That is not exactly what I said. I said perhaps YOU do not believe enough.
However, I believe it is clear that Witness Lee is teaching a heresy.
But you do not display clarity. You display limited understanding of both Scriptures and the history of Christian teaching and experience.
Take First Corinthians 15:45 and 2 Cor. 3:17 as an example. Some of the Church HAVE understood the economical operation of the Trinity.
Study too the context and ‘turn to the Lord;’ now ‘the Lord is that Spirit;’ and you will see that it is the Son who is signified. Athanasius, "Against the Arians, I, 4:11," A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Series 2, Vol. IV, Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, eds., (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1891), p. 312
The Holy Spirit in some sense is Jesus Christ Himself, but a Christ hidden from sight, a Christ within, who converses with souls and teaches these things; gives understanding… Marius Victorinus, quoted in Henry Barclay Swete, The Holy Spirit in the Ancient Church (London, Macmillan and Co., Ltd., 1912), pp. 306-307
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit—[The Lord (to whom they shall turn, ver. 16) is the Spirit (received at this conversion. Comp. Rom. viii.9-11… The turning is made to the Lord, as the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is—Where Christ is, there is the Spirit of Christ; where the Spirit of Christ is, there is Christ; Rom. viii. 9, 10. John Albert Bengel, New Testament Word Studies (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1971), p. 288
It is plain that the Lord here means Christ. This is clear not only because the word Lord, as a general rule, in the New Testament, refers to Christ, but also because the context in this case demands that reference. In v. 14 it is said that the veil is done away in Christ, and in v. 16 that it is removed when the heart turns to the Lord, and here that the Lord is the Spirit. Charles Hodge, An Exposition of the Second Epistle to the Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1859, 1980), p. 73
"The Lord is the Spirit," that is, Christ is the Holy Spirit; they are one and the same. Charles Hodge, An Exposition of the Second Epistle to the Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1859, 1980), p. 74
17. the Lord—Christ (vv. 14, 16; ch. iv. 5). is that Spirit—is THE Spirit; viz., that Spirit spoken of in v. 6, and here resumed after the parenthesis (vv. 7-16)… Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments, vol. 3 (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2002), p. 345
It is significant beyond comment that our Lord was often called "The Spirit," and "The Spirit of God," by the early Christian writers. "The Son is the Holy Spirit," is a common expression. Ignatius said: "Christ is the Immaculate Spirit." Tertullian wrote: "The Spirit of God and the Reason of God—Word of Reason and Reason and Spirit of Word—Jesus Christ our Lord, who is both the one and the other." Cyprian and Iræneus said: "He is the Holy Spirit." Joseph Cook, The Boston Monday Lectures, vol. 1 (London: Richard D. Dickinson, 1881), p. 78
Paul identifies Christ personally with the Spirit (2 Cor. iii. 17); and in Rom. viii. 9, 10, "Spirit of God," "Spirit of Christ," and "Christ" are used as convertible terms. Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. IV (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans, 1887, 1980), p. 243; see also vol. III, pp. 308 and 423
[my boldings]
Cont. latter with your questions.
You need to consider that maybe those critics were miffed at Witness Lee for other reasons and jumped headstrong into a kangaroo court ignorantly.
Originally posted by sonshipI already explained what I believe the apostle Paul meant when he said, "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit." If the Apostle Paul had meant that the last Adam was the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 15:45 he could have said "Holy Spirit" like he did here:"... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
IT does NOT say Jesus became THE Holy Spirit or THE Holy Ghost.
Sure, is there ANOTHER Divine Spirit that is life giving BESIDES the Holy Spirit ? If there is then you are proposing -
The Father,
The Son,
The Holy Spirit,
plus the other life giving Spirit that t ...[text shortened]... miffed at Witness Lee for other reasons and jumped headstrong into a kangaroo court ignorantly.
I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
(Romans 9:1 NASB)
In a previous post I pointed out that Archibald Thomas Robertson, a famous New Testament Greek scholar who wrote "Word Pictures in the New Testament", wrote the following concerning Romans 9:5 ... "the Christ according to the flesh, Who is over all, God blessed for ever":
A clear statement of the deity of Christ following the remark about his humanity.
Then he points to Titus 2:13 for Paul's use of Theos applied to Jesus Christ.
"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
A.T. Robertson also points to Acts 20:28 to reveal both the deity and the humanity of Christ.
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Witness Lee also teaches that it is the Holy Spirit that purchased the church of God with His own blood. But the Holy Spirit has no blood and never had any blood. This is not referring to the invisible Father either, because He never had any blood. This could only refer to the one and only begotten Son of God, Christ Jesus, who shed His blood on the cross as a ransom to save all that will believe in Him.
Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.
..."the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh."
Only the Son (the Word) became flesh, not the Father or the Holy Spirit, according to the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation. The Incarnation in traditional Christianity is the belief that the second person of the Trinity, also known as God the Son or the Logos (Word), "became flesh" by being conceived in the womb of Mary.
A.T. Robertson was a Baptist Trinitarian, so when he is speaking of the deity of Christ, he is referring to him as the Son of God, not as God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.
Trinitarians realize that there is only one true God. However, the trinitarian doctrine was developed over time to account for the fact that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as individual persons, yet are each spoken of as if each is the supreme deity, God. So the idea of God in three persons came about and was adopted by the Christian Church as the only way to resolve the apparent paradox.
However, Witness Lee disagrees with this resolution and uses his own modification of the Sabellian heresy instead.
As I told checkbaiter, I am only trying to defend what the majority of Christians believe on this subject. We are all free to have different opinions. So I hope I did not appear hostile toward you in my presentation.
I am looking forward to your answers to my 3 questions. Perhaps we can still come to some agreement on this like we agree on many other matters.
Originally posted by RJHinds
If the Apostle Paul had meant that the last Adam was the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 15:45 he could have said "Holy Spirit" like he did here:
The Bible does not HAVE to say "Holy Spirit" every time in speaking of the Third of the Triune God.
In Revelation 1:4 this wonderful and rich Spirit is called "the seven Spirits of God". We know that the Holy Spirit is meant because the "seven Spirits of God" is ranked there with God the Father and the Son.
"Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth." (Rev. 1:4,5)
The Father (God)
The Holy Spirit (the seven Spirits of God)
The Son
So why insist that if Holy Spirit is meant the Bible can ONLY say "Holy Spirit" ? That is an excuse and artificial restriction.
The Holy Spirit is certainly meant in Romans 8:9-11 where "Holy Spirit" is not used but we have -
"The Spirit of God" (8:9)
"The Spirit of Christ" (8:9)
"the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" (8:11)
"His Spirit" (8:11)
"the Spirit"(8:13)
"Holy Spirit was not specified once in verses 9-12.
Our experience and familiarity with the Word inform us that Third Person of the Trinity is intended.
Paul did not use "Holy" before Spirit in Philippians 1:19 when he spoke of "the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ"
Paul did not use Holy when he wrote of "serve by the Spirit of God" in 3:3.
Luke did not use "Holy Spirit" when He wrote of "the Spirit of Jesus" in Acts 16:7.
Jesus did not say "Holy Spirit" in John 14:17 but said "the Spirit of reality [or truth]" . Nor did He use "Holy Spirit" when He referred to "the Comforter" in verse 16.
Jesus did not specifically use "Holy Spirit" when in Matthew 10:20 - "For you will not be the one speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you."
In all these above passages the Third of the Trinity is meant though other titles are used.
Hebrews 10:29 speaks of the Third of the Triune God as "the Spirit of grace". It has to be the Holy Spirit because He can be "insulted" . "trampled underfoot the Son of God ... and insulted the Spirit of grace."
Galatians 4:6 doesn't say "Holy Spirit" but "the Spirit of His Son" .
There is no logically good reason to insist that Paul could not mean "the Holy Spirit" because he refers to Him as "a life giving Spirit".
In Romans it is "the Spirit of God" Who is also "the Spirit of Christ" Who is also "Christ" Himself Who will "give life" .
Unless you wish to postulate that there are TWO divine Spirits that impart God's life to man then "the Spirit" that gives life must be "a life giving Spirit" that the last Adam became.
He is bountiful, manifaceted, all-inclusive, rich and full of everything the Christian needs. So this life giving Spirit is understandably has a bountiful supply - "For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ." (Phil 1:19)
That bounty includes that He gives us God's life - a "life giving Spirit".
Originally posted by sonshipI am not saying that the apostle Paul has to say "Holy Spirit" everywhere he means the Person of the Holy Spirit. I am saying he has done it before and he could do it in this case. In fact, if he did mean the Person of the Holy Spirit in this case he should have done it because he was not taking about the Holy Spirit at all.If the Apostle Paul had meant that the last Adam was the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 15:45 he could have said "Holy Spirit" like he did here:
The Bible does not HAVE to say [b]"Holy Spirit" every time in speaking of the Third of the Triune God.
In Revelation 1:4 this wonderful and rich Spirit is called "the ...[text shortened]... 1:19)
That bounty includes that He gives us God's life - a "life giving Spirit".[/b]
If you will check the context of this section, you will see that Paul is writing of the difference between the natural earthly body of flesh that only results in death and the heavenly spiritual body that Christ will give us because of His resurrection.
It is clear from the context below that Paul is not writing about the Holy Spirit or that Christ has become the Holy Spirit:
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead....
But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
(1 Corinthians 15:20-21, 36-49 NASB)
Here we see that the NASB does not capitalize spirit, because the translators realize this is in reference to the resurrection to life to a spiritual body for all that believe in Christ. The KJV translates life-giving as quickening. So this is simply the contrast between man becoming a living soul and a quickening spirit.
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it dies
(1 Corinthians 15:36 KJV)
Originally posted by RJHinds
I am not saying that the apostle Paul has to say "Holy Spirit" everywhere he means the Person of the Holy Spirit.
The Christ Who is within the disciples (Romans 8:10) is the same Person Who is at the right hand of God interceding for us (Romans 8:34).
We thank God that though many Christian teachers never taught us that, Witness Lee has the insight to teach us that. Of course it is true because "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit."
I am saying he has done it before and he could do it in this case. In fact, if he did mean the Person of the Holy Spirit in this case he should have done it because he was not taking about the Holy Spirit at all.
He was talking about the divine life of God which has been imparted into the saved human beings. And that divine life has been imparted by the Holy Spirit.
"It is the Spirit that GIVES LIFE ..." (John 6:63)
" ... for the letter kills, but the Spirit GIVES LIFE." (2 Cor. 3:6)
First the Holy Spirit gave life to our innermost being, our human spirit, causing it to be born again -
"That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
God GAVE His life to our human, small s spirit.
He did this by means of the, capital S Third of the Triune God - the Spirit.
So the Holy Spirit is ALSO the divine life giving Spirit. Just as Witness Lee said in the Life Study of Genesis message #47 -
A human being is composed of three parts: spirit, soul, and body (1 Thes. 5:23). When we believed in the Lord Jesus, called on His name, applied His blood, and received Him as our Redeemer and our life, the divine Spirit entered into our spirit as the Spirit of life. As a result, we were regenerated and received the divine life, which was sown into the depths of our being as the seed of transformation.
In the past Walter Martin the former "Bible Answer Man" criticized Witness Lee for teaching that Jesus Christ is in the Christians. Those influenced by him mocked that a Person with robe and sandals that resurrected from the dead is not in the Christians. Witness Lee responded here -
Recently, I was told of a group of Christians who argue strongly that Christ is only in the third heaven and that He is not in us. The Bible reveals and we also preach that Christ today is in the third heaven at the right hand of God. Nevertheless, He is also in us. Both matters are covered in Romans 8. Romans 8:34 says that Christ is at the right hand of God interceding for us, and Romans 8:10 says that Christ is in us. Hence, Christ is both in heaven and in us. But these Christians ask, "Was not Christ resurrected with a body of flesh and bones? Since Christ has been resurrected with a body of flesh and bones, how could He get into you?" According to the Bible, we definitely believe that Christ was resurrected physically with a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). But listen to this: On the day of resurrection the resurrected Christ, having a body of flesh and bones, came into a locked room (John 20:19-20). How did He get into the room? He certainly did not appear as a ghost (Luke 24:37, 39). We must reverently confess that we cannot figure out this matter.
Colossians 1:27 says, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Although Christ was resurrected with a body of flesh and bones, He became the life-giving Spirit in resurrection (1 Cor. 15:45). As the life-giving Spirit, Christ is in our spirit (2 Tim. 4:22). Furthermore, Christ is growing and increasing within us. The more Christ is added into us, the more we are transformed from clay into stone. I doubt that those who refuse to admit that Christ is in them are able to be transformed. They surely could not deliver a message on transformation. But we are not simply concerned for messages—we are concerned for transformation. We need to be transformed, and transformation is only possible by having Christ imparted into us each day. Morning after morning, we need to gain more of Christ. Each day Christ must be increasingly added into our being.
How foolish it was and still is to oppose solid Christian ministry such as this.
If you will check the context of this section, you will see that Paul is writing of the difference between the natural earthly body of flesh that only results in death and the heavenly spiritual body that Christ will give us because of His resurrection.
The very SAME Person who gives life to our spirit in regeneration gives life into our soul in transformation and into our body in transfiguration. It is a process working from the inward to the outward.
I agree that First Corinthians is concerned with combating the unbelief in the physical resurrection. What you fail to see is that the process of being made alive starts with the life giving Spirit giving divine life to the kernel of man and working OUTWARD unto physical resurrection and transfiguration.
Paul says in Ephesians 4:18 that fallen man is "alienated [or estranged] from the life of God."
1.) He does not mean that this alienation from the life of God is only remedied in resurrection. It begins to be remedied when Christ makes His home in our hearts through faith -
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith,..." (Eph. 3:17)
2.) Before resurrection, Christ the life giving Holy Spirit, IS our divine life -
"When Christ Who is our life is manifested, then you shall be manifested with Him in glory." (Col. 3:4)
3.) Before resurrection, Christ, the life giving Holy Spirit is within so that we can say that for us to live is Christ -
"For to me to live is Christ ..." (Phil. 1:21a)
4.) Before resurrection, to combat the motions of sin dwelling in our fallen body, Christ as the life giving Holy Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies -
"He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh ... but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body you will live." (See Rom. 8:11-13)
Do you see that Paul is speaking of the giving of divine life on THIS SIDE of our physical death and resurrection ? Otherwise he would not say that we utilize the Holy Spirit who indwells us to "put to death the practices of the body."
The resurrection and transfiguration of 1 Cor. 15 is the result of the process of the life giving Spirit working His way from the inside of man to the outside consummating in the redemption of the body. How much we are transformed in soul will probably effect the degree of transfiguration of our body. This is probably why Paul speaks of different degrees of glory in resurrection.
"There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly is one thing and the glory of the earthly is another.
There is another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
So also is the resurrection from the dead. " (1 Cor. 15:40-42)
The phrase "for star differs from star in glory" is pretty strong ground to understand that though all will be changed (vs.52,53) the degree that divine life has effected our soul in the church age will have effect on the degree of glory in resurrection and transfiguration.
And I have to suspend writing at this point for other matters.
The bottom line of this post is that you should BACK UP and realize that the life giving Spirit is not relegated ONLY to the matter of physical resurrection. But this life giving starts at regeneration, continues in transformation, and consummates in resurrection / rapture / transfiguration.
That's the way you should understand First Corinthians 15.
Originally posted by sonshipWhy do you always run out of time before you can answer my questions?I am not saying that the apostle Paul has to say "Holy Spirit" everywhere he means the Person of the Holy Spirit.
The Christ Who is within the disciples ([b]Romans 8:10) is the same Person Who is at the right hand of God interceding for us (Romans 8:34).
We thank God that though many Christian teachers never taught us that ...[text shortened]... n / rapture / transfiguration.
That's the way you should understand First Corinthians 15.[/b]
QUESTION 1:
If Christ Jesus the Son of God is the very same Person as the Holy Spirit and the very same Person as the Father, why did He say I will ask the Father to send ANOTHER comforter, the Holy Spirit, if they are all the SAME?
QUESTION 2:
Why must the Son ask the Father anything, if He is that very Father?
QUESTION 3:
Do you really believe that Jesus was, in effect, telling His disciplea that He was going to ask Himself (the Father) to sent Himself (the Holy Spirit) to the disciples?
QUESTION 4:
Why is the Hebrew world for God "Elohim" in the plural rather than singular?
QUESTION 5:
Why does God say, "Let US make man in OUR image?