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10 Jul 14
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Originally posted by RJHinds
Why do you always run out of time before you can answer my questions?
I don't "always".
I do sometimes run out of time, questions or no questions.
You're suspicious.
QUESTION 1:
If Christ Jesus the Son of God is the very same Person as the Holy Spirit and the very same Person as the Father, why did He say I will ask the Father to send ANOTHER comforter, the Holy Spirit, if they are all the SAME?
Because God is three-one. But He is experiencial not merely an objective doctrine.
If you read it carefully, you will see that the "Another Comforter" is the first Comforter in another form.
" ... another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, Even the Spirit of reality whom the world cannot receive, because it does not know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17,18)
Since Jesus dwelt with them for three and one half years they knew Him.
Since Jesus is about to come INTO them (v.23) He WILL be in them.
So "Another Comforter" is the first Comforter in His form as the Spirit.
He will not leave them as orphans. He is about to come to them in resurrection as the Spirit of reality - "Another Comforter" .
Romans 8:34 locates Jesus at the right hand of God.
Romans 8:9-11 locates Jesus indwelling the believers.
QUESTION 2:
Why must the Son ask the Father anything, if He is that very Father?
Because this mysterious God is three-one.
We believe in the trinity. And He is for experience and not just for an objective doctrinal creed of theology.
We believe in both the essential Trinity and the economical Trinity.
Did He not say that He and the Father would come to the disciples as the divine "We" and make an abode with them? See John 14:23.
Also Jesus uses Us in His mighty prayer to the Father -
"That they all may be be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they may be in Us that the world may believe that You have sent Me." (John 17:21)
Just put the pure word above your creed and you'll do better.
We are not obligated to be able to explain the Triune God.
We are obligated to believe into Him and enjoy the experience of Him.
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
QUESTION 3:
Do you really believe that Jesus was, in effect, telling His disciplea that He was going to ask Himself (the Father) to sent Himself (the Holy Spirit) to the disciples?
That is what it says doesn't it? So why should I not believe this?
By the way you have the Holy Spirit coming from the Father and also from the Son.
1.) From the Father "But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name ..." (14:26)
2.) From the Son - "But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of reality ..." (16:26)
Rather mysterious isn't it?
Just place the statements of the Word of God in a higher place than the statements of your creeds and you'll do well.
That is what Witness Lee and other teachers have done.
QUESTION 4:
Why is the Hebrew world for God "Elohim" in the plural rather than singular?
I would have to spend time on that. However, since God said three times "Let Us" in Genesis it may also have to do with God's triune nature.
QUESTION 5:
Why does God say, "Let US make man in OUR image?
Witness Lee talked about that too -
Genesis 1:26 reveals that there was a conference held by the Godhead and among the Godhead. We say "among" because God is triune. Using human terms, we may say that there are three Persons in the Godhead, one God with three Persons. I can't explain this. I can only say that God is triune, that we have one God with three Persons. There was a conference held by these three Persons of the Godhead, and a decision was made. This conference with its decision initiated the maturity of life. After God had created the cattle, the beasts, and the creeping things on the first part of the sixth day, He did not proceed immediately to create man. Rather, He had a conference to discuss this matter. Genesis 1:26 says, "And God said, Let us make man..." If we read this verse carefully, we can see that there was something like a conference. God said, "Let us..." God is one: yet, the pronoun is "us." This proves that God is triune. It does not say, "Let me make..." If the Bible had said "me" and not "us," there would have been no need to say "let." The phrase "Let us make" means let us have some fellowship. Although you may think that I infer too much, we nevertheless have this word in the Bible: "Let us..."
From Genesis Life Study Message # 6
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=09
We have seen that man is the center of God's creation and that the human life is the highest created life. We should never forget the nine items of life mentioned in Genesis chapter one: the grass, the herbs, the trees, the fish, the birds, the cattle, the beasts, the creeping things, and man. Man is the highest created life. According to the record of Genesis 1, when God reached the point of creating man, He held a conference. This conference among the Godhead was very impressive. God said, "Let us..." This is quite meaningful. The three Persons of the Godhead were needed for the creation of man. The subsequent books of the whole Bible develop the subject of the work of the Triune God upon man. God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Then God said, "Let them." God did not say men; He said man. Man is a singular noun, but them is a plural pronoun. "Let us make man...let them..." Was there one God or many? Was there one man or many? Our God is One, but triune. Man is one, but corporate. Hallelujah! Never forget the two "lets" in Genesis 1:26. God said, "Let us" and God said, "let them." The word "us" reveals that the one God is triune; the word "them" reveals that the one man is corporate. The Triune God created a corporate man.
My bolding:
Message # 7 Life Study of Genesis
Now I have a few Questions for you:
1.) QUESTION - Is it wrong to teach that "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) if it helps saints to experience Christ in a richer way ?
2.) QUESTION - Is it wrong to teach that "the Son given ... shall be called Eternal Father" ( Isa. 9:6) if it helps the saints to experience God in a richer way?
3.) QUESTION - Is it wrong to teach that "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) if it helps Christians to experience Jesus Christ in a richer way ?
4.) QUESTION - Can we have creeds to refer to but always keep them in a little lower position to the pure utterance of the Word of the Bible ?
10 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipJust like the two Jehovah's Witnesses we have on here. You seem really indoctrinated to defend this heretical view of Witness Lee. Witness Lee has convinced you that ANOTHER means the VERY SAME ONE instead a DIFFERENT ONE of the SAME KIND. I must admit this guy is a good trickster with the language.Why do you always run out of time before you can answer my questions?
I don't "always".
I do sometimes run out of time, questions or no questions.
You're suspicious.
[quote]
QUESTION 1:
If Christ Jesus the Son of God is the very same Person as the Holy Spirit and the very same Person as the Father, why did He say I will ask ...[text shortened]... but always keep them in a little lower position to the pure utterance of the Word of the Bible ?
On the Genesis 1:26 question Witness Lee give a traditional trinitarian explanation of THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD, but then on other passages of scritpure he explains those to mean the SON IS THE FATHER, THE SON IS THE HOLY SPIRIT AND GOD IS ONE PERSON in order to trick his audience into believing in Oneness Pentecostalism while maintaining the appearance that he is teaching a Triune God.
Witness Lee might say GOD IS ONE PERSON if he meant GOD THE FATHER IS ONE PERSON, but he is referring to the TRIUNE GOD AS ONE PERSON. He is very misleading and is probalby why that student of his said it was not easy to pin him down ot these matters.
Just like with the two Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't see us coming to agreement on Witness Lee being a false teacher, because he is a very good example of one that is able to mix error with truth so to the unwary he seems to be teaching the whole truth.
Now concerning your question: I don't believe it is wrong to teach any of those verses of scripture as long as the meaning is not twisted from the orthodox Christian meaning to a Oneness Pentecostal teaching as Witness Lee does.
The Christain Creeds are not more important than scripture itself, but they provide guidance in rightly dividing the word of truth so we don't fall into heresy.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(2 Timothy 2:15 KJV)
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10 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHinds
Just like the two Jehovah's Witnesses we have on here. You seem really indoctrinated to defend this heretical view of Witness Lee.
What? What "guilt by association" are you trying to pull here?
Get use to it. The Bible SAYS "the Lord is the Spirit.
The Bible SAYS the Son given will be called Eternal Father.
Look, if you don't want to utter that they are the same Person, I understand. Fine.
But believe that "Now the Lord is the Spirit" .
I understand if you do not want to say that Son and the Father are the same Person. But believe that Son given is to be called Eternal Father.
Witness Lee has convinced you that ANOTHER means the VERY SAME ONE instead a DIFFERENT ONE of the SAME KIND. I must admit this guy is a good trickster with the language.
" the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Was the Apostle Paul also a "good trickster with the language"?
Yes or No ?
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10 Jul 14
3 edits
From
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/Christ-and-the-Spirit.html
Geisler and Rhodes say there is not "any real support" for the idea that 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers to Christ and reference "many [unnamed] expositors" who take their view that the Lord refers to Yahweh. These two statements create a false impression that Witness Lee was alone in identifying the Lord as Christ in this verse. While the testimony of Scripture should be sufficient for us to believe that "the Lord is the Spirit" and "the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit," there are also many significant scholars and Bible teachers who affirm the identification of Christ and the Spirit in the New Testament teaching of the apostles. If such an affirmation is to be condemned as modalistic, then Geisler and Rhodes must similarly condemn:
Athanasius
Marius Victorinus
John Albert Bengel
Charles Hodge
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown
Joseph Cook
Marvin Vincent
Andrew Murray
Hermann Gunkel
A. B. Simpson
James Denney
Alexander Balmain Bruce
David Somerville
John Peter Lange
Henry Barclay Swete
Adolf Deissmann
W. H. Griffith Thomas
Thomas Rees
Robert C. Moberly
Alan H. McNeile
Terrot R. Glover
R. Birch Hoyle
H. Wheeler Robinson
W. F. Lofthouse
R. H. Strachan
C. H. Dodd
William R. Newell
Lucien Cerfaux
William Barclay
Prosper Grech
Neill Q. Hamilton
Karl Barth
Eduard Schweizer
C. A. A. Scott
S. H. Hooke
Hendrikus Berkhof
David Hill
F. F. Bruce
G. R. Beasley-Murray
James D. G. Dunn
Walter Kasper
G. W. H. Lampe
Walter C. Wright, Jr.
Richard B. Gaffin, Jr.
Ernst Käsemann
Carl F. H. Henry
Lewis B. Smedes
Bruce Demarest
Gordon Lewis
Mehrdad Fatehi
John S. Feinberg
All of these expositors have identified Christ with the Spirit based on the verses at issue from 1 and/or 2 Corinthians. A sampling of their statements is included in "Scholars and Bible Teachers Who Affirm That the Lord Jesus Christ Is the Spirit."
Conclusion
The contention put forth by Geisler and Rhodes that there is no real support for Witness Lee’s interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:17 is itself insupportable. The correct interpretation of Paul’s words cannot be dictated by fiat. Witness Lee’s interpretation is supported by the immediate context of 2 Corinthians 3 and 4, by the identification of the Old Testament Jehovah with the New Testament Lord Jesus, and by the writings of many respected teachers. Geisler and Rhodes dismiss the clear meaning and import of Paul’s words in this verse and ignore 1 Corinthians 15:45 because these verses do not fit neatly into their extra-biblical theological construct. They then employ a variety of logic fallacies to support their position. The Word of God deserves better treatment.
10 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipSo are you the only one that can play the "guilt by association" game?Just like the two Jehovah's Witnesses we have on here. You seem really indoctrinated to defend this heretical view of Witness Lee.
What? What "guilt by association" are you trying to pull here?
Get use to it. The Bible SAYS [b]"the Lord is the Spirit.
The Bible SAYS the Son given will be called Eternal Father.
Look, if ...[text shortened]... 15:45) [/b]
Was the Apostle Paul also a "good trickster with the language"?
Yes or No ?[/b]
What about your thread "RJHinds and the principle of antichrist" in which you made the following statement:
Some teachers like RJHinds want to deny that the Son could be the Eternal Father. This too indicates an antichrist attempt to deny SOME aspect of who Jesus IS according to the Bible.
No the Apostle Paul was not trying to trick anyone. The Apostle Paul is NOT saying that Jesue Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 15:45.
I already explained that this was simply meant to compare Adam becoming a living soul in a natural body that was corruptible at death with the body of Christ becoming a quickening spirit in an incorrptible body suited for the Kingdom of Heaven at the resurrection.
10 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipYou keep getting amnesia just like the two Jehovah's Witnesses. I already explained 2 Corinthians 3:17 in the context before. The apostle Paul does not mean to say Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit as Witness Lee claims.
From
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/Christ-and-the-Spirit.html
Geisler and Rhodes say there is not "any real support" for the idea that 2 Corinthians 3:17 refers to Christ and reference "many [unnamed] expositors" who take their view that the Lord refers to Yahweh. These two statements create a false impression t ...[text shortened]... logic fallacies to support their position. The Word of God deserves better treatment.
I will briefly explain it one more time, so pay attention this time. It means Christ is the spirit of the Old Testament law of Moses. The letter of the law of Moses brings death, but the spirit of the law brings liberty.
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
(2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV)
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11 Jul 14
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Originally posted by RJHinds
You keep getting amnesia just like the two Jehovah's Witnesses. I already explained 2 Corinthians 3:17 in the context before. The apostle Paul does not mean to say Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit as Witness Lee claims.
I didn't get amnesia at anything. We're just talking past each other at this point.
I am not going to repeat infinitely. "Now the Lord is the Spirit" means "Now the Lord is the Spirit".
People who cannot take this passage do one of two things.
1.) Either they try to make "the Lord" not the Lord Jesus.
2.) Or they try to make "the Spirit" not the Holy Spirit.
I will briefly explain it one more time, so pay attention this time. It means Christ is the spirit of the Old Testament law of Moses. The letter of the law of Moses brings death, but the spirit of the law brings liberty.
FAIL. No need to continue. This is #2. Twist the verse to make the Spirit not the Holy Spirit.
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
(2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV)
The Spirit is the the Lord who takes away the veil from over their hearts. The veil is done away in Christ. The Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit that gives life is also called "the Spirit OF life" in Romans 8:2 -
"For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus ..."
Keep you opinion that verse 17 is some other Spirit. I side with the more obvious interpretation agreed upon in these commentaries also:
James D.G. Dunn -
...Paul identifies the exalted Jesus with the Spirit–not with a spiritual being...or a spiritual dimension or sphere..., but with the Spirit, the Holy Spirit....Immanent christology is for Paul pneumatology; in the believer’s experience there is no distinction between Christ and Spirit. This does not mean of course that Paul makes no distinction between Christ and Spirit.
(The Christ and the Spirit , vol. 1, Christology [Grand Rapids, MI: W. B. Eerdmans, 1998], 164-165)
W. H. Griffith Thomas -
It is essential to preserve with care both sides of this truth. Christ and the Spirit are different yet the same, the same yet different.
Perhaps the best expression we can give is that while their Personalities are never identical, their presence always is.
( The Holy Spirit [Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel, 1986; reprint of
The Holy Spirit of God , 4th ed., Grand Rapids: W. B. Eerdmans, 1913], 144)
H. B. Swete -
The Spirit in its working was found to be in effect the equivalent of Jesus Christ...where the possession of the Spirit of Christ is clearly regarded as tantamount to an indwelling of Christ Himself....“the Lord the Spirit,” (i.e. Christ in the power of His glorified life) are viewed as being in practice the same.
(The Holy Spirit in the New Testament [London; New York: Macmillan,
1912], 306)
Speaking of short memories.
The Spirit in that chapter is "the Spirit of the living God" .
"Since you are being manifested that you are a letter of Christ ministered by us, inscribed not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God;" (v. 3)
The Spirit of the living God is the Spirit that gives divine life.
" ... but the Spirit gives life." (v.6)
And the Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit (v.17).
The Spirit is the Lord and the Spirit is also of the Lord (v.18)
11 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipIn verse 6 of the KJV both times that spirit is mentioned it is not capitalized. The confusion only comes about because they capitalize anything related to God or Christ. But let me point out that Paul did not say "HOLY SPIRIT" so there is no clear word of scripture here that teaches what Mr. Lee teaches. Not only that, but it violates the Trinity Doctrine of the Church, making it heresy.You keep getting amnesia just like the two Jehovah's Witnesses. I already explained 2 Corinthians 3:17 in the context before. The apostle Paul does not mean to say Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit as Witness Lee claims.
I didn't get amnesia at anything. We're just talking past each other at this point.
I am not going to ...[text shortened]... Christ is the Spirit (v.17).
The Spirit is the Lord and the Spirit is also of the Lord (v.18)
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14 Jul 14
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Originally posted by RJHinds
In verse 6 of the KJV both times that spirit is mentioned it is not capitalized.
Firstly, I can only see "spirit" occuring ONCE in Romans 8:6 if that is the verse 6 you mean:
King James Bible
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Is that what you are talking about? Or do you mean something like this? Here the Recovery Version also does not capitalize the ONE instance of spirit in verse 6.
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace."
There is one instance of "spirit" and not capitalized in the Recovery Version. Your point?
The confusion only comes about because they capitalize anything related to God or Christ.
I am not sure who "they" is. Let's assume that you mean the same translators who make a small s in verse 6 for "spirit".
The translators of the New Testament are not given literal indications when a capital S is to be used or a small letter "s" is to be used. It is indeed up to the translators' interpretation.
"Every translation is also an interpretation."
Now to the born again Christian the human spirit is "JOINED" to the Holy Spirit. So the human spirit (small s) and the Holy Spirit (capital S) become united to be "one spirit". I learned that from Witness Lee when he expounded -
He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Paul and you and I have our OWN human spirit. Paul says in Romans 1 that he served God with his spirit -
"For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Sn, ..." (Romans 1:9)
Since Paul mentions "my spirit" the translators of the RcV see no need to capitalize that. We also see the individual human spirit in Romans 8:16 as "our spirit".
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."
Another passage shows "your spirit" with which the Lord is in Paul's last word in the NT.
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Timothy 4:22)
Clearly then there is our human small s spirit and there is God the capital S Holy Spirit. And we are not always sure which the writer means. But we do know that in regeneration the TWO spirits (small s human spirit and the capital S Spirit of God) have become "joined" to become "one spirit" -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" .
So, for verse 6 of Romans 8, the RcV and count that as the regenerated, God indwelt, Holy Spirit indwelt human small s spirit.
" ... but the mind set on the [human small s regenerated] spirit is life and peace.".
I agree this is a good interpretation because the same verse contrasts the human flesh to something else human, our spirit -
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace."
It is similar to John 3:6 where human flesh is contrasted with human spirit in the event of regeneration.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and the which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
1.) The human spirit is born of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.
2.) After that the human spirit and the Holy Spirit are joined to be one spirit.
3.) The Holy Spirit bears witness with our born again human spirit.
4.) Like the apostle, we too need to serve God with our spirit.
5.) We need to discern within us out human spirit where the Lord is and set our mind on the born again spirit to experience "life and peace" .
We need to discern the distinction between two parts of our being, our human soul and our human spirit, with the sharp word of God.
"For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow." (Hebrews 4:11)
Joints, marrow, soul, spirit .... we think the writer is talking about human parts. Therefore we see the small s. The living word of God operates to divine in us out human soul from our regenerated human spirit. And this we need to detect what in us is from the SELF and what is from the living Spirit of God who is with our born again spirit.
This is a life long exercise from which we never graduate. But anyway, we need to detect our own human spirit and set out mind upon it that we may be filled with divine life and divine peace.
This all does no damage to the doctrine of the Trinity. Now in verses 9 it is pretty clear that the capital S "Spirit of God is meant" -
" ... if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (v.9)
That same "Spirit of God" without controversy is the "Spirit of Christ" that the Christians have.
"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him [Christ]" (v.9)
Without dispute the Spirit of Christ is interchangeably used with "Christ" in exactly the same manner in which it is used interchangeably with "the Spirit of God" .
"But if Christ is in you ..." (v.10)
But it gets better. Christ, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead who dwells in you." (v.11)
How many dwell in the Christian? One Triune God.
This is all experiential speaking.
And those more occupied with objective theological doctrines than the experience of God, are confused because it bothers some creed trying to make a separation between the Three of the Triune God.
Don't be bothered. And don't pout at Witness Lee. Open your mouth and open your heart and call on the Lord Jesus thanking Him that Christ, the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of the God who raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you right now and forever !
14 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipNo, I was not referring to Romans 8:6. You had just replied to the following post of mine:In verse 6 of the KJV both times that spirit is mentioned it is not capitalized.
Firstly, I can only see [b]"spirit" occuring ONCE in Romans 8:6 if that is the verse 6 you mean:
King James Bible
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Is that wha ...[text shortened]... t, and the Spirit of the God who raised Jesus from the dead dwell in you right now and forever ![/b]
You keep getting amnesia just like the two Jehovah's Witnesses. I already explained 2 Corinthians 3:17 in the context before. The apostle Paul does not mean to say Christ is the same Person as the Holy Spirit as Witness Lee claims.
I will briefly explain it one more time, so pay attention this time. It means Christ is the spirit of the Old Testament law of Moses. The letter of the law of Moses brings death, but the spirit of the law brings liberty.
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
(2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV)
I was saying the two times that spirit is mentioned in verse 6 of the KJV that I quoted were not capitalized. I was pointing out that in context the spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:17 was referring back to verse 6 (not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life). It was NOT referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but to the spirit of the law which is from the Lord.
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15 Jul 14
3 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
I was saying the two times that spirit is mentioned in verse 6 of the KJV that I quoted were not capitalized.
Excuse me. You mean this:
King James Bible
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
I was pointing out that in context the spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:17 was referring back to verse 6 (not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life). It was NOT referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but to the spirit of the law which is from the Lord.
How can what is not a Person "give life"?
To "give life" you must have Someone living.
Isn't that what you argue about when you talk about evolution and the origin of life? Why not apply it here with spiritual life.
So there is the issue of WHO gives life.
Galatians 3:21 says "Is there the aw against the peomises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law."
The law and no law could "give life". A Person, a living Person who is of divine life Himself, He can "give life". And for this reason John that the law was given through Moses, but grace CAME with a Person - Jesus Christ.
"For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)
The Person of life, Jesus, came that we might have life and have it more abundantly "(John 10:10). And He is:
"the Spirit of life (Romans 8:2)
"The spirit or Spirit that gives life" (2 Cor. 3:6) (capitalized is better)
"a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
I will grant you that many English translations do not capitalize spirit as "Spirit" in verse 6. But some do. For example:
Weymouth New Testament
It is He also who has made us competent to serve Him in connexion with a new Covenant, which is not a written code but a Spirit; for the written code inflicts death, but the Spirit gives Life.
World English Bible
who also made us sufficient as servants of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Jubilee Bible 2000
who also has made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
He has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit produces life.
International Standard Version
who has also qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, which is not written but spiritual, because the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life.
NET Bible
who made us adequate to be servants of a new covenant not based on the letter but on the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who made us worthy to be Ministers of The New Covenant, not in The Scripture, but in The Spirit, for The Scripture kills, but The Spirit gives life.
We agree with the capitalization of "Spirit" there to make clear that the Lord as a resurrected Person of divine life is the Person who "gives life".
The thought that the new testament apostles are ministers of some small s spirit of the law is not good. You have not defined what you mean by "the spirit of the law".
You are going through all this for the purpose of putting forth a heresy that the Lord is not the Spirit. This is denying an aspect of what Christ IS.
Are the new covenant ministers not ministers empowered, enabled, equipped, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
They preached the Gospel by the Holy Spirit from heaven (1 Pet. 1:12)
" ... those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven..." ( 1 Pet. 1:12)
They did not come preaching "the spirit of the law" of Moses apart from Christ.
One reason people may not like to say "the Lord is the Spirit" is because they do a lot of funny things which they think are the Holy Spirit, This is especially true in some branches of Pentacostalism. If they admit that "Now the Lord is the Spirit" too many silly things they will have to believe are the doings of the Lord.
I don't think thier conscience allows them to attribute so many silly events to the Lord Jesus.
That seems not to be your reason for denying Christ is the Holy Spirit. But whatever your reasons, trying to make the Lord is the "spirit of the law" they are not good. The Spirit of verse 6 that gives life is the Son of God who came that we might have life in His form as the Spirit.
So says Witness Lee alone? By no means:
The Lord, of course, is Christ, and the Spirit is that which Paul has already spoken of in the sixth verse. It is the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life under the new covenant. He who turns to Christ receives the Spirit…. Practically, therefore, the two may be identified…. Here, so far as the practical experience of Christians goes, no distinction is made between the Spirit of Christ and Christ Himself…. James Denney, The Second Epistle to the Corinthians (London: Hodder and Stroughton, 1894), pp. 133-134
'But the Lord, to whom their heart thus turns, is the Spirit.' Many artificial explanations have been given of this verse. Without noticing those attempts which have been in direct contradiction to the meaning of the words and the scope of the context…we find here such an identification of Christ and the Holy Spirit, that the Lord, to whom the heart turns, is in no practical respect different from the Holy Spirit received in conversion. John Peter Lange, Commentary on the Holy Scriptures: Critical, Doctrinal and Homiletical, translated and edited by Philip Schaff, Volume 10, "The Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians" (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1960), p. 58
And you repeat your belief:
I was saying the two times that spirit is mentioned in verse 6 of the KJV that I quoted were not capitalized. I was pointing out that in context the spirit in 2 Corinthians 3:17 was referring back to verse 6 (not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life). It was NOT referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit, but to the spirit of the law which is from the Lord.
As I said, there are two classic ways to deny Second Corinthians 3:17
1.) Teach that the Lord there is not Jesus Christ
2.) Teach that the Spirit there is not the Holy Spirit.
You have opted for the second tactic. And I say you are wrong and should have a change in view. Others beside Witness Lee agree.
We have spoken of the sporadic activity of Yahweh in the history of Israel, directing the acts and inspiring the words of the prophets; but never until the Son of Man had ascended up where he was before, and the last Adam had become a life-giving spirit, had it been possible for the Spirit to enter into and become the life of the believer, producing in him the life of Jesus, as Paul says, "That the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh’ (II Cor. iv. 11). S. H. Hooke, "The Spirit Was Not Yet," New Testament Studies, vol. 9, Issue 4, July 1963, p. 380
…The word "Lord" in verses 17 and 18 always means Christ. He himself is the Spirit; as the close of verse 18 repeats: "this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." Other features of this conception in Paul are found in 1 Corinthians 6:17: "he who is united to the Lord becomes one Spirit with him," and in Romans 8:9-11, where the divine principle which dwells in the faithful alternately is called the Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and Christ. Hendrikus Berkhof, The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit (Richmond, VA: John Knox Press, 1964), pp. 24-25; see also pp. 18, 25-27
In this context, the word ‘Lord’ must refer to Christ, since v. 14 clearly states that ‘only in Christ is it (the veil) removed’. Verse 17 goes on to declare, ‘Now the Lord is the Spirit’, that is to say, the Lord to whom we can turn for illumination and for understanding is the Spirit, that Spirit which is experienced as life-giving, liberating power within, and which is the means by which Christ is operative in the Church. David Hill, Greek Words and Hebrew Meanings: Studies in the Semantics of Soteriological Terms (Cambridge: University Press, 1967), p. 278; see also pp. 279, 281
15 Jul 14
4 edits
Originally posted by sonshipPaul is using a figure of speech - a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage.I was saying the two times that spirit is mentioned in verse 6 of the KJV that I quoted were not capitalized.
Excuse me. You mean this:
[b] King James Bible
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[/b]
I was p ...[text shortened]... iological Terms (Cambridge: University Press, 1967), p. 278; see also pp. 279, 281 [/b]
not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life
That is a figure of speech. Does the letter really kill?
The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law is an idiomatic antithesis. When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter" ) of the law, but not the intent of those who wrote the law. Conversely, when one obeys the spirit of the law but not the letter, one is doing what the authors of the law intended, though not necessarily adhering to the literal wording.
"Law" originally referred to legislative statute, but in the idiom may refer to any kind of rule. Intentionally following the letter of the law but not the spirit may be accomplished through exploiting technicalities, loopholes, and ambiguous language.
The Christian Bible references the letter and the spirit of the law in Romans 2:29 NASB. Though it is not quoted directly, the principle is applied using the words "spirit" and "letter" in context with the legalistic view of the Hebrew Bible. This may be the first recorded use of the phrase.
In the New Testament, Pharisees are seen as people who place the letter of the law above the spirit (Mark 2:3–28, 3:1–6).
According to Jeremiah, "the qualities of the new covenant expounded upon the old are : a) It will not be broken; b) Its law will be written in the heart, not merely on tablets of stone; c) The knowledge of God will deem it no longer necessary to put it into written words of instruction." According to Luke (Lk 22, 20), and Paul, in the first epistle to the Corinthians (1 Cor 11, 25), this prophecy was fulfilled only through the work of Jesus Christ, who said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you." Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. His purpose was to encourage people to look beyond the "letter of the law" to the "spirit of the law"...the principles behind the commandments and the law's intention. Jesus quotes the book of Deuteronomy and Leviticus: "All the Law can be summed up in this: to love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself" (paraphrased).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_and_spirit_of_the_law
It is the Lord that wrote the Law and He was the only one that was able to obey the spirit of the law completely.
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15 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHindsLet me remark on your concluding statement first.
It is the Lord that wrote the Law and He was the only one that was able to obey the spirit of the law completely.
So the Lord, the only righteous One, the only Overcomer, has to come into us and live again on the earth. This time indwelling His redeemed ones.
How can He come to live in us? He has to be Spirit to indwell us.
"If we live by the Spirit let us also walk by the Spirit." (Gal. 5:25)
The Christian received divine life from the Person of the Spirit.
He is not to then go off on some self improvement effort to keep "the spirit of the law" in the power of his own flesh.
Rather as he received life from the Person of the Spirit he should continue to learn to walk step by step by that same Person of the Spirit.
I hope you do not only see salvation as Christ dying on the cross for us because He alone kept the law. Though that is correct it is not the complete Gospel. We are born again that we may live by Him and walk by Him.
As we learn to live by the Spirit we are being transformed from one degree of expression to another and to another by the Lord Spirit. Or transformed we are being by the Spirit of the Lord.
The Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ - "We do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord" ( 2 Cor. 4:5a)
If you want to say that "Now the Lord is the [spirit]" means only that the Lord Jesus Christ is the "spirit of the law" you make the Lord simply some kind of attitude about the law.
Jesus Christ is not just some kind of attitude about the law. He is in that epistle the One doing the very writing of His nature into the hearts of those whom the apostles are ministering to.
They are letters written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God. (3:3).
Is "the Spirit of the living God" the Third Person of the Trinity for you? Or is "the Spirit of the living God" just some kind of attitude, grasping the essentials of the law ?
I say "the Spirit of the living God" is God the Spirit. And the Lord Jesus Christ whom the apostles preach is the Spirit of the living God.
That is all I can write at this moment. Not evasion, but other duties around the home.
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15 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds
According to Jeremiah, "the qualities of the new covenant expounded upon the old are : a) It will not be broken; b) Its law will be written in the heart, not merely on tablets of stone; c) The knowledge of God will deem it no longer necessary to put it into written words of instruction."
1.) In Second Corinthians, the letter in which Paul writes "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (3:17) Paul also tells the Christians that Jesus Christ is in them (13:5).
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not know that Jesus Christ is in you ...? (13:5)
Explain how Jesus Christ is in the Christians if Jesus Christ is not the Spirit.
2.) In the same letter Paul says that the believers are firmly attached to Christ.
"But the One who dirmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God." ( 2 Cor. 1:21)
How can God firmly attach us to Jesus Christ if Jesus Christ is not the Spirit?
3.) In the same Corinthian letter Paul says that God has given to Spirit into the hearts of the believers as a seal and a pledge in their hearts.
"He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 1:22)
Since Paul also says "the Christ may make His home in your hearts by faith" (Eph. 3:17) .
So why is it so hard to understand Christ making His home in our hearts is also the Spirit God has given in our hearts as a pledge ? ("Now the Lord is the Spirit" (3:17)
4.) In the same Corinthian letter Paul says that we have this treasure in earthen vessels.
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us." ( 4:7)
Why is it hard to believe that "this treasure" refers to the powerful living Jesus Christ Himself ? And this especially so since Paul says "the life of Jesus" is to manifested in their mortal flesh.
"For we who are alive are always being delivred unto death for Jesus' sake that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our moral flesh." (v.11)
So why is it hard to believe that "the life of Jesus" the treasure is Jesus Christ Himself in His form as the Holy Spirit ?
Do you count "the life of Jesus" to be something different from Jesus Himself ?
Isn't your life YOU?
Why is not "the life of Jesus ... manifested in our mortal flesh" not Jesus ?
It makes perfect since when you accept the Spirit is in the believers and "the Lord is the Spirit".
5.) In the same Corinthian letter Paul says being in Christ makes us a new creation.
"So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new." ( 5:17)
Why is it hard to believe that to be in the Holy Spirit is to also be "in Christ" ?
Christ has become a realm and a sphere of divine life by means of Him being the Spirit.
Do you want to be a Christian or do you want to be a Moslem like Theist?
The Moslems know absolutely nothing about Jesus Christ indwelling them. Indeed the thought of God living in them they would probably consider blasphemous.
So you consider it "unorthodox" to believe that Jesus Christ lives in the Christians ? If so you want to make the Christian faith merely an objective matter of holding a God who is up there, out there.
This may be slightly better than Atheism. But it is short of the orthodox Christian Gospel - "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27)
And how can Christ be in us if Christ is not "Now" the Holy Spirit ?
6.) In the same Corinthian letter Paul says that Christ is speaking in him and Christ is powerful in his audience.
"Since you seek proof of the Christ who is speaking in me, who is not weak unto you but is powerful in you." (13:3)
How can Christ be speaking in the Apostle Paul if Christ as the Spirit is not in Paul ?
How can Christ be powerful toward the Corinthians and even IN the Corinthians unless Christ is IN them as the Holy Spirit ?
Since the Lord is now the Spirit, the Lord can speak powerfully in the apostle's ministry. And the same Lord is powerful toward and even IN the audience. He who lives in Paul lives also in the Corinthians audience.
How does He do that unless "Now the Lord is the Spirit" ?
According to Luke (Lk 22, 20), and Paul, in the first epistle to the Corinthians (1 Cor 11, 25), this prophecy was fulfilled only through the work of Jesus Christ, who said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you."
These references are kind of general and vague. Are you implying that there is only Redemptive death as the contents of the Gospel?
Is not as much a part of the Gospel that Christ will be in us and we in Him?
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)
And how does He become One who is IN us unless He is the Spirit ?
Isn't the indwelling of Christ JUST AS MUCH as His redemptive death part of the contents of the Gospel ?
The indwelling of the Lord as the Holy Spirit is the a goal towards which His redemption is aimed. It is superficial to think that only Christ's death on the cross for our forgiveness enshrines the entire New Testament message.
We thank God that Witness Lee helps the church to go beyond the most elementary aspects of the Gospel teaching faithfully that -
"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you" for the building up of the church, for the accomplishing of God's eternal purpose.
Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. His purpose was to encourage people to look beyond the "letter of the law" to the "spirit of the law"...the principles behind the commandments and the law's intention.
Any humanist for whom the deity of Jesus is not a fact, could have written this. All they have to believe is that Jesus left us a good example. Now you go off and be good people adhering to the spirit of the law of Moses.
Its pitifully shortsighted.
Rather the Gospel is the "unsearchable riches of Christ" (Eph.3:8)
"To me, less than the least of all saints, was this grace given to announce to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel..."
That includes the riches of Him being the Spirit in the Christians, NOW.
15 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipWhy can't you get that Paul is using figures of speech or idioms? He does not mean a literal Person is going to jump inside all Christians. The Son is not going to come back and jump into every Christian, nor is the Person of the Father, or the Person of the Holy Spirit. It is all about an enlightment of the minds of the Christians by having knowledge of the true God so that they will obey the real intent (spirit) of the Law, because their minds are in agreement (one) with God.According to Jeremiah, "the qualities of the new covenant expounded upon the old are : a) It will not be broken; b) Its law will be written in the heart, not merely on tablets of stone; c) The knowledge of God will deem it no longer necessary to put it into written words of instruction."
1.) In [b]Second Corinthians, the letter in wh ...[text shortened]... the gospel..."[/b]
That includes the riches of Him being the Spirit in the Christians, NOW.[/b]
The "spirit of the law"...the principles behind the commandments and the law's intention.