The Spirit was not yet

Originally posted by divegeester
I tank you are overthinking this, or I'm misunderstanding you.

Clearly the "spirit" of God has being on earth since Genesis so the "given" you are referring to is a different aspect of the spirit's activity I.e. Baptism in the spirit.

I tank you are overthinking this, or I'm misunderstanding you.

It will appear this way to some people. I understand that.
To some it is "Much ado about nothing".
I understand that.

Some things not too meaningful at one stage of a person's life may take on more important significance latter - sometimes.

Clearly the "spirit" of God has being on earth since Genesis so the "given" you are referring to is a different aspect of the spirit's activity I.e. Baptism in the spirit.

I agree that Baptism of the Spirit was a latter event in the life of the disciples.
My talk has been not on the event so much but on the nature of the Spirit after the glorification of Christ.

Some believers will object along your lines - "What do you mean the nature of the Spirit? The Spirit never was any different from Genesis unto whenever, and on out to eternity."

But the event of God's incarnation as a man, life, death, resurrection compounded into the eternal Spirit the effectiveness of the life of Jesus for our living. I believe the typology of Exodus 30:22-33 puts a picture on the words of Jesus -

" But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive;

for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:39)

In the next post I will provide another meaningful picture from Revelation 4 and 5.

The eternal Spirit of the Triune God is seen as seven lamps of fire before the throne of God in Revelation 4.

" And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance, and there was a rainbow around the throne like an emerald in appearance. (4:3)

And out of the throne come forth lightnings and voices and thunders. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God." (v.5)

God seated on the throne has before Him seven lamps of fire which signify the eternal Spirit of God.

Then in chapter 5, the next chapter, the seven Spirits become the seven eyes of the Lamb, who stands for Jesus the Son.

"And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as having just been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (5:6)

The seven Spirit of God - the eternal Spirit of chapter 4 has "picked up" Someone. They have "picked up" the Redeemer. He is the Lamb of God freshly slain and "standing" in resurrection. Now the eternal Spirit are His seven eyes.

You cannot possibly say that the eyes of a person do not stand for that person.
You look into someone's eyes and you look into their being.

The Lamb, the Redeemer God-man has been "compounded" to the eternal Spirit. This is why the eternal Spirit is seven lamps of fire before the throne of God in chapter 4 and are the seven eyes of the Lamb in chapter 5.

The God-man, the Redeemer has lived, died, resurrected, and ascended to compound the life of that God-man Redeemer into the eternal Spirit. The eternal Spirit are now His very eyes.

It is very meaningful. And I think it is another picture to be considered like the holy anointing oil compound of Exodus 30:22-33 .

Originally posted by divegeester
Like the jehovahs witnesses your doctrine has led you to have two saviours; Jehovah and Jesus. Jehovah says in the Old Testament:

[b] "I am the Lord and besides me, there is no saviour".
Isaiah 43:11

If you believe that Jesus is not Jehovah, not God himself revealed then, saying "Jehovah is your saviour through Jesus" is just a fudge of what scripture is saying.[/b]

Jehovah, Elohim, Yahweh, are all names for God. My Savior is God in Christ.
Jesus is my savior, but He could not be who He was without God.

Originally posted by sonship

[b]I just answered that above... Jesus
But I already know where you are going...
I can't look it up right now but it's the verse that says God our savior?
I would have to say God is our savior because it was his idea in the first place .
In other words God was the originator.

But when Jesus came to earth He did not come leaving ...[text shortened]... the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (v.11) [/b] [/quote][/b]

Yes the Father is in Jesus, (God in Christ in you). I have God in Christ in me. Does that make me God? God in Christ does not mean Jesus is God. I know you want it to but that is not what I get reading the bible.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Jehovah, Elohim, Yahweh, are all names for God. My Savior is God in Christ.
Jesus is my savior, but He could not be who He was without God.

"I (Jehovah) am the Lord and besides me, there is no saviour".
Isaiah 43:11

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Yes the Father is in Jesus, (God in Christ in you). I have God in Christ in me. Does that make me God? God in Christ does not mean Jesus is God. I know you want it to but that is not what I get reading the bible.

Yes the Father is in Jesus, (God in Christ in you). I have God in Christ in me. Does that make me God? God in Christ does not mean Jesus is God. I know you want it to but that is not what I get reading the bible.

Yes, salvation's ultimate goal is that man is made God but not in His Godhead.

The Fatherhood remains God. But the sons of God who share His divine life and nature are the expansion of God.

But this is on the subject of Theosis or Deification which is not my main focus right now. Right now I take to task that Christ is God incarnate.

The LIFE of God cannot be thought to not be God. And fallen man is "alienated from the life of God." (Eph. 4:18) How can you say "the life of God" is not God ?

Jesus said " I am THE LIFE " ( John `4:6) . This divine and eternal ZOE [life] that Jesus says He is is "the life of God" from which man in the fall was alienated.

" Being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them ... " (Eph 4:18)

The apostles were among the first to have this alienation from the life of God terminated when Christ came into them. John says they actually handled the Word of life.

" That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life.

(And the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us.).

That which we have seen and heard we report also to you that you also may have fellowship with us, and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:1-3)

The life of checkbaiter IS checkbaiter.
And the life of sonship is sonship.
And the life of God is God.

And Jesus said that He is "the life" of God.

" Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

Once again - the life of the Father cannot be something OTHER than the Father.
The life of God has to be God.

John says that the divine life was in the Word. And Jesus said He IS ... the divine life.
And the Word was with God ... and WAS God (not a deity, not a god) but the Word was God. In Him was the life of God.

" All things came into being through Him [the Word], and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being,

In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:3,4)

How can you explain that the life of checkbaiter is not checkbaiter ?
And how can you explain that the life of God is not God ?

The Gospel of John was written when different false teachings concerning the Person of Christ were trying to creep into the church life. One of these heresies was that claim was made for Christ being divine but His human nature was denied. According to this view Christ was God but was not a man.

Since Satan usually aims heresies to the Christian church in opposite pairs so that men will fall into one unbalanced view or react and fall into its opposite, the opposite heresy also came.

In the opposite false teaching claim was made for Christ's human nature but His divine nature was denied, According to this view Christ was a man, but not God.

On one side - Christ is God yet not man.
On the other side - Christ is a man yet not God.

The truth is that He is the complete God and the perfect man. Christ is the mingling of God and man. So a number of great teachers have held faithfully to this revelation by using the phrase God-man. All genuine Christians confess that Jesus Christ is both God and man.

The term God-man expresses the true middle way between the two opposite heresies.

Originally posted by divegeester
"I (Jehovah) am the Lord and besides me, there is no saviour".
Isaiah 43:11

Because the above verse seems to say that God is the only savior, the argument is that Jesus has to be God in order to save us, and if he is not God, then he did not save us, and we will die in our sins. But this is a fallacious argument because it fails on several counts. First, it fails to recognize the distinction between God as the Author of salvation and Christ as the Agent. [5] God, Christ and others are all referred to as “savior,” but that clearly does not make them identical. The term “savior” is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated it as “deliverer.”
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/can-only-god-save

Originally posted by sonship

Yes the Father is in Jesus, (God in Christ in you). I have God in Christ in me. Does that make me God? God in Christ does not mean Jesus is God. I know you want it to but that is not what I get reading the bible.

Yes, salvation's ultimate goal is that man is made God but not in His Godhead.

The Fatherhood remains God. But the sons of ...[text shortened]... od and man.

The term God-man expresses the true middle way between the two opposite heresies.

All genuine Christians confess that Jesus Christ is both God and man.

And there we have it. Constantine all over again. If we were living in the 4th century I would be toast.
Many true Christians were martyred because they held on to the truth. This is when the trinity began.
http://www.slideshare.net/AbuToshiba/the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-by-a-f-buzzard-and-c-f-hunting

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Cheekbaiter, I did not look at your articles, at least yet.

Because the above verse seems to say that God is the only savior, the argument is that Jesus has to be God in order to save us, and if he is not God, then he did not save us, and we will die in our sins.
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The book of Judges has a number of saviors.
Samson, for example, or Gideon were spoken of as sent saviors of Israel.

Eternal salvation is from God alone.

" And there is no other God besides Me; A righteous God and Savior, And there is no one except Me.

Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no other." (See Isaiah. 45:21,22)

But this is a fallacious argument because it fails on several counts.
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Isaiah 45:21,22 is fallacious ?


First, it fails to recognize the distinction between God as the Author of salvation and Christ as the Agent.
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Not for me. It affirms the Triune God.

Ephesians is written concerning -

" ... God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (1:2)

We have "ONE LORD" in Ephesians 4:5 and " ... our Lord and of His Christ" in Revelation 11:15

Are you sure you don't want to believe in the Trinity ?


[5] God, Christ and others are all referred to as “savior,” but that clearly does not make them identical. The term “savior” is used of many people in the Bible. This is hard to see in the English versions because, when it is used of men, the translators almost always translated it as “deliverer.”
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I pointed out that several "saviors" appear in the OT.

But your theory calls for us saying Isaiah 45:21,22 is not true.
I won't be doing that.

This "saving" is about God dispensing Himself into man.
In that journey or process the God-man Jesus says we should believe in God and also in Him. He places Himself on equal footing in terms of divine salvation.

" Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me." (John 14:1)

This is not saying that Jesus is exactly like a Samson, or Jephtha or Gideon, saviors of the book of Judges. At most they were types of the ultimate Savior - God Himself.

"Believe in God, believe also in Me" acknowledges that God is going through a kind of process to impart Himself as salvation into man.

This process includes creation, incarnation, human living, death, resurrection, and ascension. For man's full salvation God had to go through with these steps.

They had the Old Testament as their only Scriptures at that time. Jesus was saying that they should not only believe in God as they knew in the OT but believe also in this latter incarnation of God in the man Savior Jesus.

And there we have it. Constantine all over again. If we were living in the 4th century I would be toast.

Many true Christians were martyred because they held on to the truth. This is when the trinity began.

I am willing to look into this.

However, if they were killed it would have been in disobedience to the teaching and command of Jesus according to His words in Matthew 13.

Jesus instructed His apostles NOT, I say NOT to go out into the world and try to eliminate false believers from true ones, in the world.

" And the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where then did the tares come from ?

And he said to them, An enemy has done this. And the slaves said to him,

Do you want us then to go and collect them?

But he said, No, lest while collecting the tares, you uproot the wheat along with them. " (See Matt. 13:24-30 and 36-43)

1.) The field represents not the Christian church but "the world" (v. 38)

2.) In the WORLD false Christians will be mixed with GENUINE Christians. It is a fact of life.

3.) Disciples of Christ will not ALWAYS be able to tell the difference.
This is not a call to be purposely vague. It is a recognition that sometimes it will not be possible for the Christians to tell who is false and who is a true believer.

This is a fact of life.

4.) Jesus did not authorize the Inquisition or Constantine or anyone ELSE to try to collect what they call false Christians to kill them. In doing so they will, through lack of wisdom, gather true ones too inadvertently.

5.) Concerning the world, Christian must tolerate that many false Christians will be planted along with them in "the world".

7. Finally, in the Christian EKKELSIA, the church (called out assembly) , it is permissible that we welcome only true believers if we can discern them. But in " the world, the field, we should not try to eliminate false Christians.

Originally posted by sonship

And there we have it. Constantine all over again. If we were living in the 4th century I would be toast.

Many true Christians were martyred because they held on to the truth. This is when the trinity began.

I am willing to look into this.

However, if they were killed it would have been in disobedience to the teaching and command ...[text shortened]... rn them. But in [b]" the world, the field, we should not try to eliminate false Christians.[/b]

I have confessed Jesus as Lord in my life. I believe with all my heart that God raised him from the dead and God appointed him as head of his church.
I have holy spirit and can operate the manifestations, so frankly, I don't care if you think I am a false Christian.
I can say with confidence and in my opinion that Trinitarians are not worshiping the God of the bible. I have said in the past that God overlooks a lot of these issues and welcomes as children all who believe Romans 10:9-10.
I don't think you will ever convince me of a trinity nor will I convince you of the one God and one Lord of the bible.
So we are at an impasse and I will stop there. Any further discussion would be fruitless.
Go in peace.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I don't think you will ever convince me of a trinity nor will I convince you of the one God and one Lord of the bible.

I didn't really say I knew you were a false Christian.
I expounded from Matthew 13 my bases for rejecting the thought of you being killed by some kind of Inquisition. Your complaint seemed to suggest that I was ready to eliminate you from the world.

Whether you are a true brother or a false one (or I for that matter) Jesus did not instruct His disciples to kill false believers.

Now as to your strongly held belief in One Lord and One God ? Me too ? (Eph. 4:4-6)


One God ? Amen. You won that argument. I believe in one God.
One Lord ? Amen. You won that one too. I believe in one Lord.

You see I think your beef is and has always been not against the idea of the Trinity but against tritheism - "three Gods".

Originally posted by sonship

I don't think you will ever convince me of a trinity nor will I convince you of the one God and one Lord of the bible.

I didn't really say I knew you were a false Christian.
I expounded from [b]Matthew 13 my bases for growing at the thought of you being killed by some kind of Inquisition. Your complaint seemed to suggest that I w ...[text shortened]... has always been not against the idea of the Trinity but against tritheism - "three Gods".[/b]

The way I understand the bible is there is one God, Yahweh.
He is above all, He is the Creator, the one who had a plan from the beginning.
His plan started out with Adam and Eve. That failed. He had to wait thousands of years for the right circumstances, so as not to interfere with freedom of will, to bring forth a man(the 2nd Adam.)
This was Jesus, who was like the first Adam, no sin nature, had to be tempted like the first Adam.
The 2nd Adam succeeded where the first one failed.
He passed all the tests and temptations with flying colors.
He had to be 100% man.
Because of his obedience, God highly exalted him to be a Prince, the Captain of our salvation.
He was the only man with sinless blood that could redeem mankind.
He was and is the only man who could love God back perfectly.
He was perfect in all his ways.
That is why Jesus is my Lord and Savior. He is my hero and my redeemer. He is my kinsmen Redeemer.
When all is fully accomplished (The Telos or final end) he himself will be subject to God according to Ist Corinthians 15.
He will sit on the right hand of God and he will be "like" God to us. But they are still two distinct beings.
He will rule the new earth in righteousness, justice and with all of his Fathers attributes.
God Himself could not be the sacrificial lamb. God is not a man, He cannot be tempted with evil. Jesus could be tempted with evil, but he was not. His love for his Father was too great.
If Jesus was God, Satan would not have even tried to tempt him, knowing God could not be tempted.
God could not die, He is eternal. Jesus could and did.
God raised him from the dead showing His approval, and sealed Satan's extermination.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Because the above verse seems to say that God is the only savior, the argument is that Jesus has to be God in order to save us, and if he is not God, then he did not save us, and we will die in our sins. But this is a fallacious argument because it fails on several counts. First, it fails to recognize the distinction between God as the Author of salvatio ...[text shortened]... lways translated it as “deliverer.”
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/can-only-god-save

It is not "fallacious" it is scripture which you don't seem to be familiar enough with on this topic. For example: nowhere in the Bible does it say that "God is the author of life", it says that "Christ is the author of life" - big difference in the context of what we are contending over and you position that Christ is NOT God". If Christ is the author of life, how can he not be God?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The way I understand the bible is there is one God, Yahweh.
He is above all, He is the Creator, the one who had a plan from the beginning.
His plan started out with Adam and Eve. That failed. He had to wait thousands of years for the right circumstances, so as not to interfere with freedom of will, to bring forth a man(the 2nd Adam.)
This was Jesus, ...[text shortened]... d and did.
God raised him from the dead showing His approval, and sealed Satan's extermination.

There is only ONE Lord
There is only ONE saviour
There is only ONE God
There is only ONE creator

Jesus is the author of life
Through him everything was created - he was in the Garden
He is (as you say) the saviour
He is (as you say) Lord
He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last
There is only ONE Alpha and Omega
We are baptised in his name, not the titles Father, Son and Holy Ghost, because the name Jesus is the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost
Jesus is the ONE "Everlasting Father" and "Mighty God" - Isaiah
Jesus is "the right arm of God laid bare" - Isaiah 52:10