The Triune God in Revelation 4&5

Originally posted by roigam

I know I'm coming in a little late with these questions but I think they are important important.

In Rev 1:1, Why did God have to give any information to Jesus?

If Jesus is God wouldn't he already have the informatioon?

My reply to your comment will be with a view to the subject of the triune nature of God.

The scroll containing the unfolding of the prophecy is in the hands of God Who sits upon the throne.

"And I saw in the right hand of Him who sits upon the throne a scroll written within and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?

And no one in heaven nor on the earth nor under the earth was able to open the scroll or look into it.

And I wept much because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look into it." (Rev. 5:1-5)

No creature either from the angelic world or the human or any other possible life was qualified, able, or worthy to receive the revelation of God's eternal purpose and prophecy. It is apparently a matter of WOTHINESS that God sought.

No scientist, no philosopher, no wise men, and not even the most ancient of angels was in a position to possess the privileged to receive the sealed revelation from God.

The twenty-four elders were no able. These twenty four elders are not the elders of Israel as some mistakenly think. Nor are they twenty four elders of the Christian church. If they were elders of the Christian church surely John himself would have been among them. John was one of the earliest original disciples of Jesus. Surely, he is an "elder" among all Christians.

These are the elders of creation. These represent the most ancient of ancient being created by God. They are elders among the angelic creation. And the crowns upon their heads signify that they are assigned authority before the millennium to rule as God's deputies over His creation.

From this class of being came Satan. I mean the Daystar was of the ancient deputy rulers as a crowned elder being in very distant pre-Adamic times.

Anyway only God incarnate as the Lamb, Jesus Christ, was WORTHY to receive the revelation. And in chapter five He, the Lamb takes it from the hand of the One upon the throne. And He with that One receives universal worship.

Why did God have to give any information to Jesus?

This is answered by the fact that Jesus alone was WORTHY for His utter obedience as the God-man totally consecrated to the will of His Father. He OVERCAME and prevailed as the ultimate emblem of submission to the ultimate emblem of authority.

"And one of the elders said to me, Do not weep; behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so that He may open the scroll and its seven seals.

And Isaw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the eldeers a Lamb standing as having seven horns and seven eyes which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sits upon the throne." (5:5-7)

The Father gave to the incarnated, overcoming, slain, resurrected and exalted Son the sealed revelation because of His worthiness.

The Root of David signifies that Jesus was God. Jesus is not only the son of David as a man. Jesus is also the Source of David as David's God.

" I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to these things for the churches. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright morning star." (Rev. 22:16)

In His divinity Christ is the Root the source of David.; in His humanity Christ is the Offspring , the issue of David. So He is t he Root of David and the shoot, the Offspring of David as the Messiah. (Matt.22:42-45; Rom. 1:3; Jer. 23:5)

Praise this God-man Jesus Christ.


The Lion of the tribe of Judah signifies that Jesus is a kingly fighter who overcame Satan.
The Lamb signifies that Jesus is the Redeemer Who shed His blood for man's eternal redemption.
And the seven eyes of the Lamb are the seven Spirits of God when were before God's throne in chapter four. This signifies that He is also the eternal Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

The eyes of a person are surely the person. To look into someone's eyes is to look into their soul. The eternal Spirit Heb 9:14 - the seven Spirits of God are the very eyes of the Son of God.

This is the Triune God revealed in Revelation 4 and 5.

Originally posted by divegeester
The Bible is teeming with references to a new earth. Here are a few below. Obviously Ecclesiastes is referring to the new earth.

Rev 21:1
Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away...

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor ...[text shortened]... od's promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells

I'm sure you realize the possibility that the new heavens and new earth are symbolic.

Why would God destroy the earth where He and His son showed the greatest act of love ever shown?

Originally posted by sonship

I know I'm coming in a little late with these questions but I think they are important important.

In Rev 1:1, Why did God have to give any information to Jesus?

If Jesus is God wouldn't he already have the informatioon?

My reply to your comment will be with a view to the subject of the triune nature of God.

The scroll contai ...[text shortened]... overcoming, slain, resurrected and exalted Son the sealed revelation because of His worthiness.

Of course he was and is worty.

The question is, why didn't he have the information if he was or is God?

When the Revelation was given, Jesus had already ascended to Heaven to sit at the

right hand of his Father until his Father placed his enemies as a stool for his feet.

See Ps 110:1

God the Father Calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega and yet we also see the Lamb calling Himself the Alpha and Omega in chapter 1 of Revelation and also the description of the Lamb's appearance is that of a judge as depicted in Daniel when Daniel has the vision of the Ancient of Days.....The Hair white as Wool and the eyes like flames of fire...

Manny

Originally posted by roigam
I'm sure you realize the possibility that the new heavens and new earth are symbolic.

Why would God destroy the earth where He and His son showed the greatest act of love ever shown?

I do recognise that possibility but I dismiss it because in my opinion the weight of specific scripture indicating "newness" is overwhelmingly more that that of of some kind of symbolic refreshing and cleansing.

When it comes to the theme of creation there is a lot of examples from related areas in the bible which we can use as "types" e.g.
- If any man is in Christ he is a NEW creation. Not an augmented one, a NEW one.
- Jesus' humanity, his flesh, was a NEW creation born of incorruptible seed, we are born of corruptible seed. Only God is incorruptible.
- the NEW convenant does not augment the old covenant, it replaces it because it is NEW
- "behold I am doing a NEW thing"

The weight of specific scripture and these other "types" are a few of the evidences and indicators of what God's intentions are.

However I'm open to having my view changed in this if you feel you can do so without shoe-horning a portfolio of other JW dogma (I.e. your teachings that you JWs are all going to live on earth post Jesus return, is not evidence of old or new earth) into the equation then I'd be interested to here why, specifically, the old earth will remain.

Originally posted by menace71
God the Father Calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega and yet we also see the Lamb calling Himself the Alpha and Omega in chapter 1 of Revelation and also the description of the Lamb's appearance is that of a judge as depicted in Daniel when Daniel has the vision of the Ancient of Days.....The Hair white as Wool and the eyes like flames of fire...

Manny

I like that evidence of the oneness of God.

I.e. There is only one Alpha and Omega.

Originally posted by roigam
Of course he was and is worty.

The question is, why didn't he have the information if he was or is God?

When the Revelation was given, Jesus had already ascended to Heaven to sit at the

right hand of his Father until his Father placed his enemies as a stool for his feet.

See Ps 110:1

Of course he was and is worty.

You probably think that Christ was worthy because he was Michael the archangel. But that would only include Him as in the class of the twenty-four elders. Michael the archangel would be of this class of very ancient and crowned "elder" beings brought into existence in the early universe.

But the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Lamb is God incarnated - putting aside His glory and His possession of equality with God, taking on the form of a man, and being obedient even unto the death of a cross. This is seen in Philippians 2:6-9.

His worthiness is not because of general ancientness or assigned dignity as the angelic rulers. But Philippians 2:9 speaks of His exaltation by His Father for His uttermost submission and obedience:

"Wherefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth. And every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:9-11)

This is exactly what is seen in Revelation 4 and 5. Christ, the slain and resurrected Lamb whose very eyes are "the seven Spirits of God" is inaugurated into a place in which universal worship is rendered to His Father AND His Son by every existing creature.

Not on His attributes according to mere creation but according to His incarnation, living, uttermost obedience He is worthy.

'And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, eacch having a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which bowls are the prayers of the saints.

I may come back to the bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints latter.

The worship due the Son is done by the four living creatures which represent all living creations of God and the twenty-four ancient elders of the angelic creation. And the worship all the universe renders is that which is worthy only for God Himself establishing that the Triune God is revealed in this chapter.

"And I saw and I heard the voice of many angels and of the living creatures and of the twenty-four elders, ..." (v.11)

Myriads and myriads of angelic beings worship. If the utermost consecrated and obedient Lion - Lamb Who has taken the scroll, is not God-man He would not be so worshiped.

Manny was right to point out He is Alpha and Omega and the incarnation of the Ancient of Days as the white haired Judge of Daniel and Revelation.

The universal worship is revealed:

" Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb WHO HAS BEEN SLAIN to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing." (v.12)

His worthiness is not merely because of His position as a CREATED being. It is "because He was slain" in His uttermost obedience in incarnation, living, crucifixion for creation's redemption.

The Three-one God is the receiver of this universal worship. The Father is upon the throne, the eternal Spirit is before His throne and is also the seven eyes of the Son, and the Son is the Lion-Lamb Who takes the scroll of God's economy from the hand of the Father. All three of the Trinity are scene in this universal worship of creation.

"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, i heard saying, To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (vs.13,14)

The question is, why didn't he have the information if he was or is God?

Why do you just refer to this as "information" ?

Whether He had the knowledge or not I may not be able to explain. However, it is clear that He was took the scroll of the revelation from the hand of God upon the throne, isn't it ?

Why was it not the case for God on the throne to simply open the sealed scroll Himself ? Of course God upon the throne who HAS the scroll is worthy and able to open it.

The incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, and exaltation of the Son qualifies Him to take the scroll. How much "information" He had may be human speculation.

Whether you deem it necessary for Him to take the scroll or not take it and merely relate what "information' He had anyway, this is not what we see. We see Him honored to the uttermost.

Are you intending to withhold that honor which all the universe with angelic and any other creatures - natural and supernatural render up to God and to the Lamb ?

I intend to be in harmony with all creation. Do you intend to rationalize that the Lamb should not be worshiped in the same way as Him Who sits upon the eternal throne ? This would be rebellious.

The angels by the ten thousands and thousands and thousands so worship. The most ancient beings among the angels fall before Him on the throne AND the Lamb.

You know better than they ? You are going to correct them and help them to reason that the Son already had the "information" ?

Jehovah God says every knee will bow to Him and every tongue swear (Isaiah 45:23)

"I have sworn by Myself, A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return,

That every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall swear. "

And this one Who did not grasp at what He legitimately possessed, equality with God, but emptied Himself of this glory for the form of a man, a slave of a man to die on the cross, has been exalted to be the recipient of that very promise of Isaiah 45:23

"Therefore God highly exalted Him and bestowed upon Him the name which is above every name.

That in the name of Jesus every knee shold bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth. And every tongue should openly confess that JESUS CHRIST is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:9-11)

Daniel 7, Revelation1, Revelation 5, Isaiah 45. Philppians 2 all agree that the Triune God is worshiped - the Father - the Son - the seven Spirits of the Holy Spirit Who are the eternal Spirit before His throne and the very eyes of the Redeeming Lamb.

Originally posted by roigam

When the Revelation was given, Jesus had already ascended to Heaven to sit at the

right hand of his Father until his Father placed his enemies as a stool for his feet.

See Ps 110:1

You are thinking too much of God being subject to a time element. What John witnessed was the innaguration of Christ immediately after He ascended to heaven.

From the earthly point of view we could say this already took place. But as you know John seems to do some divine "time travel' to witness things from the transcendent standpoint of God.

We should view this scene of Revelation 4 and 5 as the scene taking place at the time Jesus ascended to Heaven.

While I cannot explain everything about this mystery it is evident that He had been "freshly slain" as the Lamb of God meaning He had recently died and been resurrected.

The Recovery Version brings out the sense of the Greek by supplying the word just .

"And i saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as having just been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (Rev. 5:6)

John is carried away in spirit to a realm transcending normal time. He is witnesses the ascension of Christ expressed in supernatural signs to convey the profound truth of that event.

Also the worship of God and the Lamb is forever and ever (verse 13) It is not temporary. It is not of God forever and ever but for the Lamb only for a temporary time or only for a thousand years.

The Triune God there is worshiped forever and ever however else God's economy unfolds throughout all eternity.

Three gods in one God and seven spirits in one of the gods, I.e. the God who is less equal than the other two gods (because he will not speak of himself, or is it themselves, as there is seven), who are co-equal, except when one Son God is in the flesh, then he is less equal than both of the other gods because he is also lower than the Angels.

Or maybe...the Lord your God is one.

Trouble is, if you don't accept all this incomprehensible doctrine you cannot be filled with the spirit and therefore you are not saved.

Originally posted by divegeester

Three gods in one God

To substantiate that I at any time taught "three gods" please supply the quotation I wrote containing the phrase "three gods"

Secondly, and more importantly produce the Bible passage saying "three gods".

If you can do neither of these two things then I needn't be concerned that I have taught "Tritheism" in any of these discussions.

and seven spirits in one of the gods,

The seven Spirits, the seven eyes and even the seven lamps from Zechariah and Revelation must signify the Spirit of God.

You should know that Zerubbabel is a type of Christ. The real builder of God's house is not David, Solomon or Zerubbabel who were only less than perfect foreshadows; prefigures. They pointed to the Son of God.

As a prefigure of Christ Zerubbabel is called the Branch or the Shoot. And he is signified by a stone with seven eyes.

"Here then, Joshua the high priest, ... I am about to bring forth My Servant, the Shoot, For here is the stone that I have set before Joshua - upon one stone are seven eyes ... (Zech. 3:8)

Open your spirit and your mind. Zerubbabel, the builder of God's damaged temple is called The Branch and is symbolized as a stone with "seven eyes". This has to point beyond the governor to the ultimate Governor rebuilding God's damaged church and the tabernacle of God - New Jerusalem.

Jesus is the branching OUT of Jehovah God.
Through the Son of God the Father branches out and into humanity.
Through the Son of God the Father shoots out into the earth.

Look now at this mysterious stone with seven eyes. This stone will be engraved by God Himself. This engraving stands for the redemptive crucifixion of the Son of God that is to remove the iniquity of God's people.

"For here is the stone that I have set before Joshua - upon one stone are seven eyes, I will engrave its engravings, declares Jehovah of hosts,

and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day." (v. 9)

Here we see something concerning Incarnation - God BRANCHES out into humanity.
Here we see something concerning Redemption - God in a man is "engraved" and cut for the removal of iniquity.
Here we also see something concerning Building - a STONE always means BUILDING.

This stone is God incarnate to accomplish redemption. The Son of God is the head of the corner which was rejected by the religius builders but became the very cornerstone of God's building through His death and resurrection.

"Jesus said to them, Have you never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the head of the corner. This is marvelous in our eyes? " (Matt. 23:42)

The would be religious builders had the Son of God executed. But through God's sovereignty He was engraved upon and became the cornerstone of God's living temple.
This providence of God over man's rejection of God's cornerstone is marvelous in our eyes.

We will return to this. But right now I wish that you would see that the seven eyes of this stone are definitely connected with the Spirit of God.

"For who has despised the day of small things? For these seven [seven EYES] rejoice when they see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel;

They are the eyes of Jehovah running to and fro on the whole earth." (Zech. 4:10)

This has to remind us not only of the seven Spirits in Revelation but also the eyes of Jehovah in Second Chronicles 16:9 eagerly looking through the earth as to how Jehovah may use man to further His purpose on the earth for His glory.

" For the eyes of Jehovah run to and fro throughout all the earth to strengthen those whose heart is perfect toward Him. " (2 Chron. 2:9a)

Can you be enlarged to see not only God but God in man ?
Can you be expanded to see not only the one God but the one God operating within man for His glory on the earth?

He branches out of Himself and into humanity.
He accomplishes the redemptive death for removing iniquity.
He imparts Himself as Spirit into His forgiven ones to build up His glorious house on the earth for His vindication.

It is the eternal Spirit seen as seven Spirits before His throne in Revelation 4.
Around this eternal Spirit and compounded with this eternal Spirit is the redeeming Lamb. The seven lamps are in Revelation 5 now the seven EYES of the Redeemer.

God as a Redeemer has become life giving Spirit for the building of the habitation of God in spirit - the church and ultimately New Jerusalem.

I.e. the God who is less equal than the other two gods

There is no mention in the Bible of "the other two gods" and you know this.
There is no mention of "three gods".
There is mention of "the Lord your God is one" . But He is still quite mysterious in His operation to accomplish His eternal purpose.

(because he will not speak of himself,

You seem not to be mocking me but the pure word of God.
The Spirit that will be with the disciples FOREVER - will speak as He hears the Son speak. And He also searches the depths of God.

Still, there is no mention of "three gods".
Do not grumble. Rather you should say "Amen!" to whatever the Word of God tells you.

or is it themselves, as there is seven),

The number seven signifies two things I am pretty sure of -
a.) Intensification
b.) Perfection in time.

There are a lot of sevens in the book of Revelation as you know - seven lampstands, seven angels, seven churches, seven seals, seven horns, seven bowls, seven trumpets, etc.

Seven Spirits is the operating and intensified Holy Spirit who is God Himself.

Do you thing the eyes of the Lamb cannot point to the inner soul and person of the Lamb ? In symbolism the book of Revelation is showing us that Christ is God incarnate. He is God incarnated yet slain and resurrected and exalted.

He is also the Spirit sent forth into all the earth.

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom" (2 Cor. 3:17)

That is especially freedom from God's enemy to participate in the eternal purpose of God.

I realize that some of these things take more time to get into.
I do empathize with some who are just frustrated with perplexity at hearing some strange things they never heard before.

I am not the best teacher of these things. I recommend that a Recovery Version of the Bible be obtained and the footnotes and study notes be examined for an extended time.

The New Testament portion of this study bible can be obtained free from Bibles For America.

http://biblesforamerica.org/

The entire NT and OT though with footnotes is what I have ever opened before me. That you can obtain from Living Stream Ministry or perhaps on ebay or Amazon.

Please do not exploit this friendly suggestion as a sales pitch.
Please do not mischaraterize my motive, which is only that the riches of the Lord's enlightening ministry these days be available to all seekers.

Originally posted by divegeester
I do recognise that possibility but I dismiss it because in my opinion the weight of specific scripture indicating "newness" is overwhelmingly more that that of of some kind of symbolic refreshing and cleansing.

When it comes to the theme of creation there is a lot of examples from related areas in the bible which we can use as "types" e.g.
- If any ...[text shortened]... ) into the equation then I'd be interested to here why, specifically, the old earth will remain.

So you think Eccl. 1:4 is not true?

Have you considered the possibility that the new heavens are God's Kingdom through His son Christ Jesus and the new earth is a new society that will inhabit the literal Earth as it foretells at (Psalm 37:11) But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. This would harmonize with
(Isaiah 9:6) For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father,..... Prince of Peace. and also with
(Daniel 2:44) “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,