The Triune God in Revelation 4&5

These seven in Zechariah 4:10 are "the eyes of Jehovah".
Grasp here that the eyes of God in Zechariah correspond to the eyes of the Lamb in revelation 5.

Grasp also that the seven touches before the throne of God in Rev. 4 being "the seven Spirits of God become the seven eyes of the Lamb in Revelation 5.

We see in this scheme both the Incarnation of God as a man and the Holy Spirit being God Himself and Christ Himself.

Even though we span two books separated in time over a long period of time, the God Who inspired both writings has His overreaching purpose always on His heart. That is to be incarnated, live a perfect life of a man, die a redemptive death, be raised from the dead, be exalted, and pervade through the earth for the building of His dwelling place.

That is a mutual dwelling place for God and man.

Sonship.

There is ONE God and ONE spirit, ONE entity who is the ONE Lord of all; ONE saviour. Everything required is found through his given name for salvation, which is (currently) Jesus.

That is all someone enquiring needs to know. All the hundreds of pages of your convoluted, incomprehensible over engineered waffle, is error.

"These seven" are the eyes of Jehovah in Zech. 4:10 .
The eyes of God in Zech. 4:10 are seen as the seven eyes of the Redeemer, the Lamb in Revelation 5:6.

"And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing ... "

"Standing" here denotes resurrection.

" ... a Lamb standing as having just been slain ..."

I am taught that this supplied word just been slain brings out the sense of the Greek translation of a Lamb recently slain, ie. recently crucified and resurrected. This is a scene in Heaven when Christ was ascended to heaven weeks after His death and resurrection.

" ... having just been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." (v.6)

There is not that much absolutely new in the book of Revelation. This Lamb with seven eyes hails back to the stone with seven eyes in Zechariah which are the eyes of Jehovah God. Here in Revalation 4 and 5 first the seven torches before God are the seven Spirits of God and then the seven eyes of the Son of God slain and resurrected are the seven Spirits of God.

In both Zechariah and Revelation the eyes are sent forth into all the earth.

Christ is the Lion - Lamb - Stone. I will have to elaborate more on this. He is the Lion as the elder saw Him. He is the Lamb as John saw Him. And He is the building stone for the building of the dwelling place of God and man where God dwells in man and man dwells in God for a mutual eternal habitation.

The climax of God's salvation is the incoporation and mingling of God and man for a mutual dwelling place. The incarnated, slain and resurrected Christ is the cornerstone, topstone, and foundation of this dwelling place.

You must appreciate the stone with seven eyes in Zechariah and how it corresponds to the redeeming Lamb with seven eyes in Revelation .

We are seeing in these things a revelation of the Triune God, the incarnation of Christ to be the Redeemer and the Cornerstone and His Spirit being the Spirit of God sent forth into all the earth for God's purpose to build Himself into man.

Originally posted by divegeester
Sonship.

There is ONE God and ONE spirit, ONE entity who is the ONE Lord of all; ONE saviour. Everything required is found through his given name for salvation, which is (currently) Jesus.

That is all someone enquiring needs to know. All the hundreds of pages of your convoluted, incomprehensible over engineered waffle, is error.

Divegeester, These things are not the milk of the word. They are the more solid food. Now I do not disagree with you that "all" some need initially does not involve many of these things.

And those who feel these are unnecessary matters may suspend their examination. but SOME of us should go on to learn of these matters. And I think at least some readers and believers of the Bible would like cautiously to consider these things.

My word to you is try to bear with me. But if not, there is no need to oppose the writing. I have not written anything that is against God being one.But the Bible, not me, also reveals the one God is quite mysteriously Father - Son - Holy Spirit.

These explanations of some difficult symbolism in intended to help some understand how they are related to God's triune nature and God's eternal purpose, which purpose comes to a culmination in the book of Revelation.

Originally posted by divegeester

That is all someone enquiring needs to know.

It is where YOU want to stay. You want to know nothing else.
Speak for yourself.

All the hundreds of pages of your convoluted, incomprehensible over engineered waffle, is error.

You will not be able to prove that. You are only able to state that in a grandstanding way. You will not be able to demonstrate error.

All that I have explained in terms of symbolism can be backed up in terms of plan words of teaching.

is Christ NOT the Spirit ? The NT says " Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17)

You can call that "waffle" and insult the word of God as "convoluted" but sorry, Mr. Unitarian - "the Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit".

That is the plan teaching which you cannot contradict. Try it.

"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor .15:45)

You cannot deny it with all your Unitarian whining. You can only insult me for quoting it and backing it up with some admittedly puzzling yet inspired symbolism in the books of Zechariah and Revelation.

Why don't you just get out of the way and allow some who have a more Berean attitude to check these things with the word of God to see if they are true?

You say ' all anyone needs is to see that God is one."

No some need to see the one God is a Trinity and how that relates to His eternal purpose.

You're stuck because unlike checkbaiter you at least at least mouth that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God then you should all the more appreciate that the eyes of God are the eyes of the Lamb.

Therefore it is not "convoluted" to point out that in Zechariah 4 the seven eyes of Jehovah God must correspond to the seven eyes of the God-man Jesus, the Lamb in Revelation 5.

God has BRANCHED OUT in incarnation. He is the real Servant of whom Zerrubabel was a type. Jesus is the cornstone of God's building Himself into man.

Don't bother us about "waffle" and being "convoluted". You can be puzzled and a little impatient and perplexed. But you have said NOTHING ... NOTHING to refute any of the essence of what I have written here.

"We preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord" says Second Corinthians 4:5[/b]. And in 3:17 the word of God says -

"And the Lord is the Spirit .."

The symbolism is backed up with plain teaching. And God is triune.

Originally posted by sonship
Divegeester, These things are not the milk of the word. They are the more solid food. Now I do not disagree with you that "all" some need initially does not involve many of these things.

And those who feel these are unnecessary matters may suspend their examination. but SOME of us should go on to learn of these matters. And I think at least some reader ...[text shortened]... ature and God's eternal purpose, which purpose comes to a culmination in the book of Revelation.

It doesn't surprise me that you will attempt to rationalise your error through an appeal to deeper, 'meatier' knowledge.

I am no more in opposition to you, than you are to me, we simply disagree. However, it is my contention that you believe that in rejecting what you believe about the trinity will put someone's salvation at stake through them being precluded from being spirit filled (your definition).

I what you believe (not just these items mentioned here but also your other strange beliefs) as potentially harming the gospel and certainly adding to it, therefore I chose to debate with you on it. You would do well to remember that this is not your personal blog-space and I and others have often suggested to you that you that if you don't like what you are posting being "opposed", then you should start a blog.

Originally posted by sonship

That is all someone enquiring needs to know.

It is where YOU want to stay. You want to know nothing else.
Speak for yourself.

I do speak for myself.

Thanks for judging me and spiritual desire btw...

Originally posted by sonship
divegeester has provided no evidence

I've given you clear scriptural evidence and simple rational in one of the other (many) threads you have started on the subject in the last couple of weeks. But you ignored it.

God is triune. How we can see this in Revelation 4 and 5 is mightily ridiculed by some.

It has not yet been demonstrated by either roigan or divegeester or anyone else as far as I can see, that it is wrong to worship the Lamb as God on the throne is worshipped.

This matter is more objective and easier for some naysayers to understand - "Oh, you're talking about who should be worshiped." This is less a mysterious matter than the seven eyes of a stone and the seven eyes of the Lamb which are both the Spirit of God.

So I'll pull back for a brief moment and challenge any anti-trinitarians to notice that John was twice scolded for worshipping ANYONE except God Himself (Revelation 19:10 (John would not be permitted to worship the angel) and Revelation 22:8,9 where again the angel forbade John to be so overcome with awe that he fell to worship before the angel.

He was told that he must not do that but only worship God. Well God on the throne and the God-man, the Lamb are God to be worshiped by all creation including man.

This more objective matter has not been refuted or contradicted as far as I can see by any anti - Trinity writers here.

" .. worthy is the Lamb who has been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying,

To Him who its upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.

And the four living creatures said, AMEN. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (Rev. 5:12-14)

The Triune God is worshipped. Leave us alone!

The God the Father on the throne worshipped.
The Lamb whose eyes are the eyes of Jehovah is worshipped with Him.
The seven Spirits are compounded into the Lamb to be His seven eyes.

The Father - the Son - the Holy Spirit (the seven Spirits) are the One God - the very mysterious three-one God is worshipped by every created being there.

We have a curious duo of naysayers in divegeester and roigan. One says Jesus is God but will not recognize "to Him Who sits upon the throne AND TO THE LAMB ..." . And to roigan whose Arianism and Jehovah Witness indoctrination forbids him to acknowledge the Lamb, Jesus Christ, as God incarnate.

A curious pair of errors. Neither is able to refute the universal worship of the Triune God in Revelation 4 and 5 .

This is rather objective. And i will not remain here long.
More needs to be developed about the connection between Revelation and Zechariah concerning the building of God's temple, God's house. Ultimately we who have received Christ Jesus as Lord are the house of God.

" But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house, whose house we are if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end." (Heb. 3:6)

Originally posted by divegeester
I do speak for myself.

Thanks for judging me and spiritual desire btw...

Now you throw out there that I "waffle" and that I am teaching "convoluted" things. You dish out some strident accusations. You get some blowback.

But me personally is not at stake here. The truth of the word of God is what is important.

Originally posted by divegeester

I've given you clear scriptural evidence and simple rational in one of the other (many) threads you have started on the subject in the last couple of weeks. But you ignored it.

If John was rebuked for worshiping an angel. WHY is the whole universe not rebuked for worshiping God who sits upon the throne and the Lamb ?

That is TWO __________s. If I cannot say "Persons" to stress it too far, I can at least borrow the plural pronoun "Persons" in order to put SOME kind of human language on the nearly incomprehensible.

I would prefer to leave it blank. But you have the unversal worship of two _________s. I don't know what to call them. The Bible calls them God and the Lamb.

If you worship the Lamb as you worship God you worship all that constituted the Lamb. The seven eyes are the Holy Spirit. And the seven eyes are of the Lamb.

The Father - Son - Holy Spirit are there as the one God and as the three ________________s ( I can only briefly borrow the human language word "Persons" to convey the mystery).

Grasp that the Lamb with God upon the throne is the recipient of universal worship there. Praise the Triune God.

Come and argue with me mr. Jehovah Witness.
Come and argue with me mr. Unitarian.

God on the throne is one "Person"
The Lamb in the midst of the throne is a second "Person".
The seven Spirits both before God's throne and who are the eyes of the Lamb sent forth into all the earth are a third "Person".

No, the eyes of the Lamb are not just a "force" mr. JW. If I look into your eyes I see the soul of a living person, mainly you.

The eyes of Jehovah which become the eyes of the Lamb speak of the personhood (for lack of a better expression) of the Lamb and the Holy Spirit.

You have the Triune God here. I'm sorry. Well, I am not sorry. But either way you have a revelation of the Three-one God.

Originally posted by divegeester

Sonship.

There is ONE God and ONE spirit, ONE entity who is the ONE Lord of all; ONE saviour. Everything required is found through his given name for salvation, which is (currently) Jesus.

I affirm ONE God.
I affirm that the ONE Spirit is symbolized as the seven Spirits.
The ONE lampstand in Zechariah has seven lamps. We should not think the expression "the seven Spirits of God" means more than one Spirit.

It is an expression meaning the operating and intensified Spirit of God for God's moving on earth.

I affirm ONE Lord
We have also Jesus as Lord and the Lord and His Christ in the New Testament. Yet there is one Lord.

The Triune God is Lord.

The Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17) .
Revelation 11:15 speaks of -

" ... the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ "

But Jesus is our Lord. But God is our Lord and has His Christ.

Christian should not talk like Moslems opposing the simultaneous existence of the Father and the Son. They talk about Allah and how there is no Trinity. They have no Son of God either.

If you have the Son of God then you have the Father and the Son. Or you should have the Father and the Son in your experience and belief.

" Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father EITHER; he who confesses the Son has the Father ALSO. " ( 1 John 2:23)

Originally posted by divegeester

[qoote] It doesn't surprise me that you will attempt to rationalise your error through an appeal to deeper, 'meatier' knowledge.
[/quote]

Peter warned that some who were unstable would twist what Paul wrote. But he said we should listen to brother Paul all the same.

No I am not comparing myself to the Apostle Paul, it is sufficient to notice that things some of which were hard to understand, were twisted by critics. These things however were considered by Peter to be edifying the the Christian brothers even though they were sometimes difficult.

"And count the long-suffering of our Lord to be salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you.

as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." ( 2 Pet. 3:15,16)

We may consider what is so hard about encouraging the saints to endure some suffering? There is no need for anything difficult to be taught.

I would surmise that when Paul wrote of the need for endurance and longsuffering thrugh trial he may have tied all these matters in with God's eternal purpose to build up the Body of Christ. Some of these things were deeper. The unlearned considered them waffle or convoluted.

Peter, said they contained wisdom and should not be twisted. Those twisting were accustomed to twisting the "other Scriptures".

I suppose what diviegeester will do next is seize upon the word "destruction" whatever Peter meant, and insist that I am saying if he is not in agreement with my treatment of the Trinity he will perish.

Anyway, some deeper matters will be discussed in this thread. Revelation is a profound book.

Originally posted by sonship
Now you throw out there that I "waffle" and that I am teaching "convoluted" things. You dish out some strident accusations. You get some blowback.

But me personally is not at stake here. The truth of the word of God is what is important.

Would you like a list of all the insults you've fired at me during these "trinity" exchanges.?